Episode 12: Leaving Comfort Zones: The Art of Change

Leslie: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody, here we go. Um, today's episode was inspired by a series of events that happened on a drive back home from Miami this past weekend from the soccers and, um. We decided today's topic was going to be about listening and is it something that our society really does? I mean, obviously you're listening to this podcast, but with the amount of noise that comes our way every day, what are you really listening to? April: Yeah. And I think there's a big difference between listening and hearing because so much of what we consume every day is really just hearing things in passing. Um, like, you know, as we scroll through reels and TikTok and things like that, we're just hearing things and scrolling. And so our attention spans are like nothing. And when we go to keep up with trends for work and whatnot, [00:01:00] um, it will tell you how long you have before someone's gonna scroll past and it just, it seems like our attention spans are like getting less and less every day. Leslie: Yeah, I think they're less as, they're, they're less than a goldfish. April: That's insane. Also sad, but anyway, so there is a massive difference between actually listening and passively hearing. So, Leslie: yeah, well, in preparation for this episode, I wanted to look some things up and, and see what's, what really is the art of listening? What are the skill sets that people need for effective listening? Right. And I found, um, a few things online and this, this paragraph I thought really summed it up well, and it actually kind of called me out on some things that I know that I have issues with. And so... Um, I'm going to read this from online. It says ... "the art of listening is a crucial skill for [00:02:00] effective communication and building meaningful relationships. It involves actively paying attention to others. understanding their perspectives, and responding thoughtfully. Good listeners are empathetic, non judgmental, and able to maintain confidentiality. Practicing active listening can help you build trust and develop stronger connections with others." And, uh, I definitely know when I read the part about, you know, I can pay attention. I don't really have a problem with the paying attention part. It's, it's sometimes I have the issue with the understanding their perspectives and not being, um, judgmental, which that kind of, you know, is an issue, right? April: And I feel that's where the empathy comes in, because empathy isn't just feeling sorry for somebody. It's that, I mean, it's more of like understanding their lens of how they are seeing something, whether you agree with it or not, you can have [00:03:00] empathy, um, I mean, in everything. And it's kind of like, let's say somebody's got a specimen and you're both looking at the specimen under a microscope, but you guys have two separate microscopes. Um, maybe their lens has an ability to see like really deep through the specimen and yours is better at seeing the surroundings. And so if that person is explaining to you their thoughts on, you know, the center of the core here, and all you can see is the parameter or the, the outermost part of something, then you're not going to come to an agreement because you have two completely different lenses. And I think a lot of times that's kind of like what's happening in our culture. We've got people who have experienced oppression and, you know, horrible things at its core and other people who are [00:04:00] in power, are creating laws and boundaries and things that they've only been able to see the surface of things. So they're not taking into account the depth of what some people experience or see things through. And I mean, lo and behold, there we have our entire, you know, political climate right now. So, yeah. Leslie: And I mean, and, you know, empathetic listening. involves not only hearing the words that are being spoken, but also paying attention to those nonverbal cues that are happening like facial expressions and body language, it requires being fully present and engaged in the content in the whole conversation, you know, giving your undivided attention to the speaker. So I know you were going to bring up some. Some nonverbal cues that that you've noticed before April: and it's like if you I, [00:05:00] I have, you know, friends in my life or people past friends rather that are really bad at interrupting. They don't mean to, but they do. And it's like, you can't even get a full thought out before they start talking, it's like they haven't even fully listened to what you have to say because their train of thought already has a conclusion without listening to you. And so they kind of stop you without even noticing it and continue their thought, not even being able to comprehend what you just said. And like my face doesn't typically hide my feelings, even if I try. And so I know, like, with specific people, they can tell if I'm like, they'll interrupt and I kind of make a face like, Okay, carry on, you know, like, I'm kind of sarcastic in that way. But it's kind of a pet peeve when people interrupt. Leslie: Yeah, I mean, [00:06:00] it's frustrating because it, it makes me feel like you really don't care about what I'm saying. You're too worried about interjecting your point of view. And so you're, you're not listening to me. You're not absorbing anything that I have to say. You have zero care in the world about the words coming out of my mouth. You just want to feel, fill the space with the sound of your voice, you know, and, and be dominant in that, that way. And another thing that really Is a non verbal cue for me, um, you know, is the being on your cell phone when you're engaged in conversations, um, you know, because I know people are like, well, I can multitask really multi multitasking is not a real thing. You look it up. We don't have time to discuss that in this podcast, but it's not real. Multitasking is not, you don't, no one has the ability to split your attention, um, and fully. April: You're really multi half assing. Leslie: Yeah. Oh, I [00:07:00] like that one. Multi half assing. I like that. Put that on a t shirt. You know, so when someone is, on their phone and if, especially if like the conversation has been going and then someone gets on their phone, that either one tells me that, well, this conversation is not very interesting to them. So maybe we should not talk about this any longer. Or you just. You don't have the ability to focus. So you're off to the next thing. And really, why am I here having this conversation with you? Um, you know, it also is just kind of rude at times. It's like, right. If you, I get it. We're all very busy people. And I, I'm the same way. Like we, when we were having, um. Conversation one morning at Starbucks with a friend. Like I felt bad because I had, you know, work, work was going on. And like, I needed to be very focused and mindful on, on something, but I also wanted to be mindful of this conversation. And, you know, I said from the beginning, I [00:08:00] apologize. I may have to jump on my phone and handle certain things because there's important, you know, high priority things that are going on and I get that. And that's fine. If, if that kind of comes with. with a condition. April: That's different. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's different whenever you give them kind of that, that heads up. That's not really, I'm not interested. That's means I'm, I've got multiple things going on today and I'm going to need to kind of split my attention when needed. Right. But I think whenever someone, and I'm really bad about this, especially like when I'm at my mom's, I tend to like get on the phone cause I'm. Like either talking to you or, you know, somebody else and she's talking, I do it all the time and she absolutely hates it and I, I need to be better at that. But anyway, um, I think too, if you're like talking to a friend and they, in the middle of it, just kind of check out and look at their phone. I think that's when you can do like a sound check for them and [00:09:00] be like, so also your mom called and your house is on fire and your dog died. Like, you know, like something dramatic to see if they actually are engaged. They're like, wait, what? Right. Right. Leslie: And I mean, you know, if, if I think that's where communication comes in line, like if, if some people do like tune out, they can't. Their mind can only hold so much information. So if it's been a long, you know, conversation and, and I'm, I'm also guilty of like, this is nothing that I'm pointing fingers at anybody else at. I mean, these are all things that we all do, you know, I think it's just being respectful in those conversations. And being mindful of maybe what your actions are communicating that, you know, when your words are not being used at that moment. April: And when you actively, like, listen, it's showing that person that you actually are acknowledging [00:10:00] them and you care about what they're saying and you're, you're listening not to respond. You're listening to understand. Leslie: Yeah. And that's where, you know, again, that, that lens of empathy comes, comes through there because you know, it's, it's important to be side by side with that person when they're telling you some, especially if they're telling you something very like personal or, or whatever, you know, meaningful. If it's just like. Oh, I'm just telling you this new, like, television show that I'm watching. Oh, okay. Like, yeah, you can probably, you know, multi half ass that conversation, um, but if someone's sitting down and having a serious conversation with you, being able to walk alongside of them and try to, to put yourself and acknowledge the [00:11:00] emotions that they might have been going through during this story. I mean, that, that will allow you, like, anytime, you know, maybe someone's talked to you about Yeah. Yeah. The death of a family member or you know the sickness of someone in their life or whatever like you and you can Feel yourself like you can relate you can say oh, I felt like this when this happened to me kind of thing That's where practicing empathy is so important when when you are actively listening Reserving your judgments, right? Instead of saying well, I didn't feel like that when that happened to me You know, like, Oh, you're just being, you're just being too soft or, Oh, you're just, you're being too emotional about this. No, that's not your place to say that. April: It's not helpful. Leslie: Yeah. And I think like we have a default of, I'm not even sure we're able to not come to some kind of judgment or conclusion about some time, some things, [00:12:00] you know. April: Um, but I think the ability to kind of filter through that and be like this, I want to respond, but I'm not going to respond. It's kind of your own internal filter. , instead of responding with what you may want to say, maybe just let them finish out the whole thing, kind of get the whole picture before coming to any conclusion or, you know, sharing any advice or, Leslie: cause sometimes people aren't, you know, aren't telling you something to get advice either. April: Sometimes they just need your ear and understanding when that time is, is also super important. Leslie: As an enneagram too, I'm the helper. And so I love giving advice, you know, I'm going to give you all the advice. And I know that I have to be very intentional and mindful if what the words that are about to come out of my mouth, are they really words you want? Are you seeking them or, or are you just, you just need to get something off of your chest and you're just, like you said, needing that [00:13:00] ear. April: Well, I think you're also really good at asking questions. To kind of understand what they are wanting out of sharing that with you. You know what I mean? Cause also the questions serve as I am actually listening to you. And this question comes from me understanding what you're saying, you know? And so I think when you ask questions. It means that you're engaging and it's also helpful for you to understand what exactly they want out of this conversation. If they just want your ear or if they really, truly want your opinion, because sometimes it's both. Leslie: And I think, I mean, I think now's a good time to kind of, um, introduce the series of events that happened over the weekend because, um, and it's kind of a little bit backward. So it was late Sunday evening and you sent me. Uh, this meme, sorry, we're, we love the memes, right? Last episode was about the memes, but. April: Well, it's, it's really a quote that someone just [00:14:00] put on a background. Right. So it's like, but it's not like funny or anything. Leslie: Yeah. When I read it, I was just like, wow, this really sums up what happened earlier today. Um, and so it's, it, the Instagram account, "the happy givers" posted this quote, like you said, and, and, um, you want me to read it or are you going to read it? April: Oh, I don't care. I can read it. Leslie: Go ahead. April: All right. Um, this is a quote by Sarah Maddox and it says, "when you debate a person about something that affects them more than it affects you, remember it will take a much greater emotional toll on them than on you. For you, it may feel like an academic exercise. For them, it feels like revealing their pain only to have you dismiss their experience and sometimes their humanity. The fact that you might remain more calm under these circumstances is a consequence of your privilege, not increased objectivity on your part. Stay humble. " Leslie: Yeah, like that really, that really struck [00:15:00] me. Because. That kind of summed up a lot of things. I think we've mentioned before, um, where, you know, people come from a, a place of, of different levels of privilege. And when you respond or debate with someone, especially if it's about a topic that you aren't necessarily directly impacted by, like, uh, racism or homophobia or ableism or, you know, whatever, fill in the blank. Um, but you're just, you're so passionate about your point of view when you're not even a part of that community. And you're debating with someone who might be part of that community, It can really be emotional for them to have to like, feel like they're fighting for their life, not only like on a regular, everyday basis in society in general, but now in this conversation with you, they're fighting for their life again. You know, and, and, um, right, April: it's the [00:16:00] high powered lens versus the surface lens. Leslie: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so to back it up one more step, so earlier that day on the ride home, um, you put on this, this podcast, um, "the new Evangelicals." Yeah. And, um, it was definitely something that. After listening to it, I, I, I typically have not been super triggered by a lot of things, but after listening to this, I definitely, I was triggered. April: So if you don't know who the New Evangelicals are, so it's, uh, Tim Whittaker, he's the creator and founder of the podcast and it's a whole organization. And so basically this guy came from the same background as I did., We have lots in common. He was a musician as well, and he is now kind of considered an ex evangelical because he kind of started, you know, deconstructing, kind of breaking down his belief system several years ago and finding [00:17:00] out and learning all these, you know, inconsistencies and just things that were not okay within his. world, his belief system. And so he had to exit from that. Um, he lost a lot of friends, lost communities, um, but he's gained kind of a whole separate community here in this. And so what he does on his show is try and uncover, injustices throughout the church world. And so he facilitates conversations, usually with big name people. So this past episode, he was speaking with a guy named Zach Lambert. And it was about an event that happened in Georgia. If you don't know who Andy Stanley is, he's a really big mega church pastor. Been around a long time. Has a lot of literature, has like 30, 000 plus members. Several locations. Anyway, he held an event called [00:18:00] Unconditional, and it was held specifically for parents of LGBTQ plus youth. And how to, whether you are on board, not on board, um, but open to learning, this event was for them. And I thought it, that's, because it was a really risky thing for him to do. Um, he's going to get all kinds of backlash for it and already has. Um, but it's a, it's a huge step. And so in this podcast, he was speaking with this guy, Zach, and they were. recordings of another conversation that was happening that was basically against what he was doing, what Andy Stanley was doing with this, event, because obviously there's a traditional view. And so this conversation with the other two guys was kind of bringing up reasons why this [00:19:00] Andy Stanley is dangerous reasons why this event was, it should not have happened or it was heretical. And so they would play that conversation and then have a rebuttal for what they were saying. And so it was just this back and forth type thing. Leslie: Yeah, it was, um. Yeah, it was it so this he has a regular podcast the new event evangelicals, but this was a new thing I guess he started on on YouTube. So it was more of a live and engaging type show on video and It was it was Tim and Zach like you were saying but then and they went to the conference So it's not like that was you know hearsay They attended the conference and these other two people that were, that had a separate show after this conference, um, Sean McDowell and Alan Schleman, um, Schleman, Schleman, um, they, uh, you know, had their take. So, like you were saying that back and forth [00:20:00] conversation and, and I guess what caused the triggering for me was listening to this rather long conversation, you know, it was a long drive back. So we had time and I think it was that that pull the ebb and the flow of the the two different perspectives Because you have you had one side that you know is very clear against it And then you had another side who was more from a pro stance that this is a healthy conversation to be having. And you have me, and they're both coming from it, both sides are coming from it with a very heavy religious lens, right? So that April: Right. And also a white, cisgendered man. Leslie: All four people, white, cisgendered men. Um, and then you have me sitting in the middle of this conversation as it's happening, who I'm on my own faith journey, you know, religious [00:21:00] journey, whatever you want to call it in my own interpretations of, of how all that works and, kind of learning from a fresh perspective later in life, you know, in an inquisitive way, you know, finding out things for myself, not just being instructed how to feel about something. And I got to tell you after that, I mean, I, I think we stopped it. It was cause it was like a two hour conversation. I think at one point we stopped it, but it was, it was way too far. It was like an after an hour and 45 minutes because I just, I just couldn't take it anymore. I like, I listening to that, the, the changing narrative, I felt like a rag doll. And just getting pulled apart. And it made me think of. Something that you had said, um, to me, I don't know, how long ago was that that you were [00:22:00] kind of experiencing that? April: Um, what are we talking about? Leslie: Like, like when you, when you were also having, like, every day in your life, you would have these, like, These back and forth conversations in your head. April: I would listen to podcasts or speakers or whatever, like while I was working and I would, I would listen to someone who was clearly against it because I thought that that's what I needed to condition myself to, in order for me to change or to fix myself. So I would listen to that side and it would just be so painful, but it was like I needed to hear it because this was part of the growing process, quote unquote. And, but then I would hear like something else that was completely the opposite side of that, like more of a pro stance or an affirming stance. And, also on the same, faith level that I was at, and it was like, you can just, you know, be yourself, be free. [00:23:00] And so then it would be back and forth between these conversations. And it's caused me to get in some really dark places. And so once I started, talking to my first therapist., Jen, a couple of years ago, she's like, yeah, you got to stop doing that because it was really, and this tug of war, it wasn't just from, you know, a couple of years of listening to, um, opposite ended podcasts. It, this has kind of been the conversation in my head my entire life. And so I guess when Leslie was upset and I wasn't, I was like, I guess because. I'm very used to this. And so my lens at that point was way different. And so, um, it, you know, it got to the point of tears for her. Hopefully you don't mind me saying that, but, um, and this was much later in the afternoon and I was like, what's upsetting you, you know, and I think part of what it was too, was at one point, they were talking about [00:24:00] how this event and, you know, certain things that are happening in the world, we've made some really huge and like right now for me, it's good news because it's like, you've got half and half. That's a lot better than 90, 10, you know, that believe that, you know, or affirm and you know, 90 percent that don't. For me, the split is refreshing and it's great news because it seems like we're heading in a great direction. And so with what Tim was saying, he was saying that. Change is going to take time. He knows these things take time. And so that's when Leslie paused it and kind of got upset about it because it's easy for someone in his position, a straight white man, to have that position of, Oh, it can wait, it can wait. Whereas, you [00:25:00] know, people in, in our realm of things, or People in the black community or indigenous or, whatever it is, they've waited enough. And so it's like, that's a really privileged thing to say, from his lens. And so that's where I think you started to get upset. Leslie: Yeah. I mean, that's one, one of the things it's like, cause. I mean, he did say he had two trains of thought, you know, his first train of thought was to, pull the pin on the grenade and blow the whole thing up. And then the second train of thought was, well, this takes time. You know, my thing is, there is no second train of thought there. It's, it's the first train of thought, pull the pin and blow the whole thing up. Because, you You know, not to ruin this whole, you know, if you want to go listen to the episode and I think it would be great for, for anyone to do that. But this, and I didn't know who this Andy Stanley person is. I mean, I, I don't follow mega churches or anything like that. Um, you know, but to hear like that [00:26:00] this weekend occurred and, and all that again. Sounds great. And then apparently on Sunday morning after the conference, he gets up and preaches multiple states, multiple churches across Atlanta. Um, and has a, 49 minute sermon, um, where he's talking about all the and, and, and in the movement in that direction, which, which really sounds great. And then apparently the, the last minute he said, just to be clear, our, our church still, you know, views marriage between a man and a woman. And I think that for me was like the, I guess the, the punch in the gut, cause it's like. How are you and well, didn't say some someone say he was an ally or something like that, or maybe that was your position. I can't remember exactly. There was so much information that was being said, but I'm like that that is not an ally. You know, I understand what you're saying that [00:27:00] there is progress being made. But moving five steps forward, but then still digging the hole that says, well, just so you know, we don't actually a hundred percent affirm that and, you know, like that is not. That is not an ally. That is someone who is trying to, uh, appeal to people in a new kind of way. And I feel like they're luring you into the, building or to the faith only to then say, well, but there, you still have an issue. You're, you're, it's not exactly. It's not exact. You're not 100 percent welcome here. There's still an issue. And that's, I think, what upsets me the most. April: Right. And so going back to that quote that we were saying, it was kind of like, this was a, um, [00:28:00] privileged academic exercise for them, but then in the same breath, They can discount how you're feeling or your lens. And so anyway, Leslie: yeah, pull, yeah, pull, pull the rug right under your feet. Like you're, you're walking down the path and everything is hunky dory and you're feeling good, but then there's a big surprise waiting for you at the end. And you know what, like you said, like, I don't know, Andy Stanley, I don't know what's in his heart. I don't know where he's really trying to come from, but the things that I do know is I do know that there are people fleeing the church left and right hand over fist. I do know that the church system in our country is losing money. I mean, they're still very wealthy folks. Let's not get it twisted, but they are losing money. And from a business and marketing perspective, I do know they have to come. And figure out new ways to attract new audience to their show. [00:29:00] And the thing that I am learning on my own spiritual journey is that if you want to use Jesus. In both sides of this conversation, you're not using Jesus, right? Right. And that's what I think pisses me off. April: Well, I think it's people hearing versus listening. You know, think it's a skill to truly be able to listen. And I don't think it's a skill that many people have because they think that their knowledge trumps. Anything you're going to have to say, and so they hear you, but they're not truly listening to understand or listening to have empathy or, or build empathy within themselves. Um, so, I mean, I think those are not natural skills and the heart to actually want that. That's where being Christ like comes in. That's where the fruits of the spirit come in. And I think, you know, this whole, this whole war could really be settled with just [00:30:00] some. True listening and true empathy, you know, regardless of where you stand, because my, my stance is that I don't need someone to fully agree with everything in order to be an ally, which you stand somewhere else. And I understand where you're coming from as well. And you know, maybe, maybe the way that I'm viewing it. is wrong, just simply because I'm a nine and I can see both sides of everything. And I've been on both sides of everything. So it's kind of like my central thought that we can, we can bridge this gap without people having to completely cross the ocean to come to one side. Like, I think that there, I think that there's a way. That people can think what they want, but we can still have rights at the same time as human beings. You know, so I think it's, it just boils down to be better at listening, truly, truly listening. [00:31:00] I don't care how smart you are. I don't care how many times you've read the Bible or the freaking encyclopedia. Just listen, because I promise somebody that you talk to, you're going to learn something that you've never learned before. if you truly care and acknowledge that the person on the other side of this conversation is a human being. Leslie: Yeah. But I mean, I, I gotta tell you, I'm, I, I clearly understand now why the, suicide rates of members of this LGBTQ community are so high within religious spaces because after an hour and 45 minutes, I wanted to do harm to myself just because I couldn't, I was like, Oh, I cannot take this. I don't know how long or how you dealt with that for so long. Like it's just, it's so, it's so much noise. It's it that really has. Nothing to do [00:32:00] with you. It's all kinds of people's external opinions about something, right? April: Well, because it, it, it takes a lot of work to understand that it doesn't have to do with you. And when you're in it, it has to do with you. You are the problem. You are the cancer. You are the poison, the everything. So I think it takes, I and. just kind of self affirmations and just having a relationship with just me and Jesus. That's, I mean, that's all it's supposed to be ever, but it's taken all of this time to understand that this has nothing to do with me truly. And it's to do with the hearts of people. I think with that, I don't know if you're like predisposed to mental health things. But I don't know if within myself, I just was able to [00:33:00] overpower the negative with positive, or if I was just really, really good at putting the box on the highest shelf possible and leaving it. And I really think it's the latter. Like I've just been able to pretend it doesn't exist. And so what's left is just, you know, this version of me, which is still me. It's just not all me, but it was enough me to keep me waking up every day. Leslie: Well, I mean, I think we've, we've talked a lot about things that have happened in conversations or active ways to, to be a good listener, but let's wrap up this episode with just kind of summarizing a few of those tips. So one thing for me is definitely choose to be intentional, intentionally present when you are involved in a conversation with someone. Um, you know, again, be [00:34:00] mindful of the, of the scene that you're, that you're in. Are you sitting down to have a one on one or is it just more chatter between a group of people? You know, those are different levels of, intentionality, different ways that you need to be present there. So just be aware of your surroundings and understand what people are, are trying to, to get out of the potential conversation that's about to happen. Right. April: And it's easy to just be like. Just so distracted. Maybe your day has been super busy and you've got a million things running through your head, but if it's your significant other, your parent, your kid, just kind of like take a break for a few minutes and just be right there in that moment. Right. Um, I liked this one. Be an other minded listener. Um, it's better to be interested than to be interesting. Be quick to listen, slow to speak, ask open ended questions, seek first to understand instead of to be understood. [00:35:00] Leslie: Yeah, that's really. That's a really good one. Yeah, become an other minded listener. And we've talked a lot about third tip, be empathetic, never judge. Those are two, two hard things to do, especially in some conversations. Um, but, you know, seeing, trying to see a situation through another person's eyes and understand how they're feeling. Um, you know, you can't, Do that if you're judging them as they're literally talking to you. So, April: right. And you can't have both. You can either be empathetic or you can judge. Leslie: Right. And fourth tip, show that you're actively listening. Like, like you were saying, ask people questions. Um, one thing in my profession from, you know, being in a managerial role, like you should kind of summarize what people have said to you. Um, so that it makes it clear that you have [00:36:00] listened to them. Um, right. That you are on the same page. You, you get what they're saying. And if, if there's something that someone's saying to you that you're not quite sure. How they, what they mean by that, just ask, like, don't be afraid to stop and ask. Yeah, yeah. April: And then the last one, it's don't talk while the other person is still talking. We kind of touched on that earlier. Just don't interrupt. You know, I know everybody has something to say, but you can't fully have a thought that's pertaining to what that person's saying if you haven't actually heard all that they need to say. So just shut up. Leslie: Yeah. Am I allowed to talk now? I was waiting. I was waiting. I was waiting. I was giving you space. So, um, I'm sure there's more tips out there. We would love to have some feedback from you, you know, send us other ways that you can be a great listener, or even if you have some examples of [00:37:00] times where you felt unheard or, or a funny experience that you might've had when it comes to these kind of conversations. So we'd love to hear from you. All right. Well, until next time, we'll see you later. April: See you.

April: [00:00:00] Welcome back, everyone. Leslie normally does this because she's so much better at it. I say really awkward things. Oh, but anyway, today we are wanting to share with you some things that we have saved in our shared Instagram folder of possible topics to converse or talk about. So, today we're going to share a few of each of our favorites and then explain why we saved it. And hopefully you enjoy it. So, do you want to start? Leslie: Sure, I will get us started today. Um, one of the ones, I think, I'm not sure who actually saved this, I think it was you that saved it, but I really liked it. So I'm going to read the meme first, and then, maybe since you saved it, you can say why you saved it, and I can chime in, because, um, I just, again, really like this one. So, "a bottle of water can be fifty [00:01:00] cents at a supermarket, two dollars at a gym, three dollars at the movies, and six dollars on a plane. Same water. Only thing that changed its value was the place. So the next time you feel your worth is nothing, maybe you're at the wrong place." April: Mm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, um, this was actually posted by Clarity Counseling and I saved it because it's so simple and yet so profound and it's something that we need to, you know, reevaluate in our minds because we, we tend to stay at places where we know that our worth is not as valuable. You know, we tend to just stick it out Leslie: yeah, I mean, I think, I think this is something that everybody, self worth, self love, those are like the two biggest issues that I think comes up in counseling for [00:02:00] really anybody. Um, and, you know, I think it is issues for people that don't even go to counseling and don't know how to verbalize or, kind of put into feelings why they feel certain ways. It's like they have no awareness around the fact that they don't have self worth. Worth or value themselves in places, like you said, they might stay in a relationship way longer April: or a job. Leslie: A job, April: um, because they think that's what they deserve. Leslie: Right? And trying to figure out how to love yourself is like just the hardest thing to do. And I, I mean, I don't, I don't know why. I mean, why do you think that is? April: Well, I know for me, and you know, people like me, it's hard to love yourself because we've been raised to not trust ourselves. [00:03:00] That your heart is deceiving and, um, that we are, you know, the lowest of sinners and all deserve eternal damnation. And so that's... That would probably be a good one for me. You know, that, that, that tends to get to you after a while. Mm hmm. You know? Mm hmm. Leslie: I guess, I mean, I guess everybody's a little different. I mean, everybody goes through different situations. I think for me, one of the things, just my personality traits and, you know, my, my makeup of a human, you know, not feeling... Like you're good enough or, abandonment issues or things that might happen when you're younger in life. It's like if someone, you know, if you're a kid and you don't really understand dynamics of things and someone that is supposed to be important in your life leaves your life without really much explanation, you [00:04:00] know, I guess maybe you can internalize that and you don't really know that. It could have an impact of feeling not, not enough, which could then lead to, which could lead to a lack of self love or just that constant, spinning in your head of, of why you weren't good enough, maybe. Right. April: I mean, that's for you. That's very real and very personal because, you know, your, your dad kind of not being involved from early on. Sent you into a, a path. Right. And that path has continued like, in your relationships. That's always a, a fear. Leslie: Correct. And it wasn't until, you know, much later in life, you know, probably early 40's of going into counseling and even identifying what that was because I, I never even thought about it being how I valued myself. April: Right. [00:05:00] Or how that value was placed. And engraved in your mind really early on. Leslie: Right. And this meme, you know, how, why it stood out for me was, Yeah, it is the same thing. It's water. And why is it just, why, why don't, why is there a, Set your own price point wherever you're at. And it's, you know, scarcity, demand, supply and demand. You're on a plane, you want the water, there's no other option. So you have to buy the water on the plane, right? Um, I guess they give you water for free. That's kind of a weird meme, but, it's so important to make sure April: You of bottled water. Right. Like if you want, like, you know, Voss. Right. Or Evian. Right. They're gonna give you a plastic cup with ice in it. Right. And it's gonna have a total of seven sips in it. Leslie: And if, if your self love is a plastic cup with ice in it with 7 sips, you know, that's good enough. , and I think if I could give [00:06:00] anyone advice, and I'm, I'm not a professional, so please don't feel obligated to take any of this advice, but anything that I've learned, it all starts with ourselves. And the first place you have to look is inward, and figure out , the I am statements. Can you look into a mirror and stare into your eyes and say, I am loved, I am valued. I am worthy, I am whatever. Fill in the blank. Can you say those things and really feel it in your core, that you're not lying to yourself? April: Right? And if you're involved in a relationship, a job, a hobby, whatever it might be, any type of community, a church, whatever that looks like, And your value feels squashed, or stifled, or devalued. It's a very strong possibility that you are in the wrong place. Leslie: Right. Yeah. So, this is a really good meme. Yeah. Next. April: Next. Um, this one. [00:07:00] I can't even pronounce this person's name, but I'll give it a shot. The meme says it's a picture of a, like a Japanese wave. It says "enlightenment is when a wave realizes it is the ocean. " And the quote is by Thich Nhat Hanh. I'm sure I butchered that, but Thich, I'm super sorry. Anyway, "enlightenment is when a wave realizes it is the ocean." So, I think this can have like, multiple meanings depending on who you are and... what state of mind you're in in that moment, honestly. So initially, whenever I read this, the first thing that came to mind was, realizing that. So if you make yourself the wave, what, what is the ocean, what represents that in your life? And so I think what came to mind first was like the church, honestly. And I was part of that. And I can say, well, [00:08:00] they, this, and they, that, but for the longest time, I was part of that, and I contributed to that. You know what I mean? Whatever that is, it can be good, bad, whatever that is, um, I was the wave, which is part of the ocean. You know what I mean? You can also look at it in another sense, a more positive sense. Like a wave just thinks it's a wave. But really, maybe if the wave could turn around and see, Oh, this is me. I am this important. I am this massive and miraculous and a wonder. Leslie: Yeah, I mean, when I, when I see that quote, it makes me realize that whether you are the wave, the action of the wave, or the body of the ocean, we are all one. We are all matter. We all are part of the same system. Right. [00:09:00] And... Connected. You may be at one time a wave that's, you know, barreling to the shore, and you crash down and roll up on the shore, but then that same, water and energy then retreats back to the ocean and rebuilds again. And that is like life. You're gonna have... Ups and downs, you're going to have ebbs and flows, and it doesn't matter really what happens to you in life, you have the ability to rebuild again. Right. And, and be just as beautiful every single time that you roll onto the shore, and you will pick up new particles of water in H2O as you're rolling up to the, right, so you're constantly in flux, you're constantly changing. Right. And growing and evolving, But you're still like the same core thing, you know, so that's kind of what I took from that. April: Yeah, so [00:10:00] it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Yeah. So, thanks for that, Thich. Leslie: Thich Um, this one I think, stuck with me because just, it reminded me of like, Kind of where we're at with loving your enemies and that being such a like, challenging task. Um, April: especially when driving. Leslie: Yeah, yeah. This is another one from that, from that Clarity Counseling page. Um, it says, argue well. It is incredibly important to remember that in any argument, it's not you against the other person. Rather, it's you and the other person against the issue. Separate the human from the problem. And, uh, that was a quote from Dr. Caroline Leaf. I'm not sure who that is, but, um, You know, that's something to really remember. And [00:11:00] that's something that gets lost. I mean, I think, with what's going on in our world today and how easy it is to hate somebody or how easy it is to just have divided issues and it's you against them. You think it's them that you need to argue against. And, and that's so hard. I think, I know we're going to do an episode coming up about, tips and tricks for how to love your enemy. Right. Um, but you, you see that person as the issue and to separate that person from the issue April: because they aren't understanding or they aren't mentally in the same space you are. So you're angry with them. Yeah. When really the issue is the issue. Right. Alone. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like a football game. The goal is, well, literally, the goal. And your problem is getting to the goal, not... Hating the players [00:12:00] on the other side. Not hating the players on the other side. It's a game. You're playing the same game. Right. They're not your enemy. Yeah. You're just trying to get to... The same thing they're trying to get to. Leslie: Yeah. It's just that, um, you know, I, again, this goes back to kind of the first point, looking inward, loving yourself. I think that's a lens that you have to look at this through is what are you really trying to accomplish and how do you have constructive conversations with people that may have a completely different view on a topic? You know, how can you communicate well? And that's, it's just such a struggle because a lot of people have issues communicating. They don't, they don't know how to effectively communicate. And so it becomes arguing or yelling or not, just not listening in general. And such, you know, heels dug into the ground of not gonna change on this position. Right. And then you [00:13:00] identify that person with that position. I mean, I'm guilty of this? A hundred percent. I mean, I'm talking in the mirror folks, like I'm not saying that this is other people's problems, right. This is totally something that I have to work on, and I know that it's gonna be extremely hard work to do to get people to sit at a table like this and have conversations and not end up and not get needed each other. April: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I told you guys the other day. Um, on I 4, this guy in a big, huge truck blew past, you know, a bunch of people. It was like 7. 45 in the morning. He had his windows down, music blaring. He didn't have any, like, offensive stickers or anything on the back of his truck. He literally did nothing wrong. Uh, honestly, other than just kind of driving silly. , but I automatically in that split second put him in [00:14:00] the same bucket as an insurrectionist. And that's very like, that's super extreme. Now I will say I caught myself immediately. And I was like, why would I, why would I go there? It's a Friday morning. Maybe he's just having a really great time in his truck with his windows down. It felt nice out. He had his music blaring. He's having a good day. So, why was I... Putting him in that box just because he was having a good day. Just because he was driving a little too fast. Yeah. So I think like... That judgment. Leslie: Yeah. But like you said, you had instant awareness around the judgment. And I really, I believe 100 percent that awareness is the key there. Because... Because we're, we are not perfect people and we're going to have thoughts that come to our minds immediately. You know, we all judge. April: Or assumptions based off of one look. Leslie: Absolutely. April: We know how that has gone. Leslie: Absolutely. But [00:15:00] having, being able, I think the growth there in your practices of not letting that happen is awareness. Right. So if it happens, trying to get the awareness that it's happening as quickly as possible to the event. Absolutely. Right. Is, is better than like, two days later, oh, I remember I judged that. April: Right, but it may start off that way. It may start off a month later when someone brings something up and you think back to that moment. But the more that you do it, the quicker you are able to be aware. Absolutely. So like, you know, we've been talking about being aware for a couple years now. And so now, you know, whenever I make a snap judgment, cause I've been on the receiving end of that. You've been on the receiving end of that. And, I mean, as recent as this past week, always, you know. And, I think the more that you practice that, the quicker it becomes. And you can shut it down before you even say what you might regret, or think what [00:16:00] you might regret. Leslie: Right. So, yeah, if you, you know, that argue well thing, you know, it's... I think one, one thing that maybe I can do moving forward is if I know I'm going to go into a conversation where people are going to have different views of mine, maybe like make some notes on my phone so that I'm focused on the issue versus straying and making it personal. Right. Um, you know, I think that could be some best practices. April: Right. And I think if we like understand that everyone has a lens and there's a reason for it. Right. It allows us to be more empathetic. Yeah. To where they might be coming from. Leslie: Yeah, definitely would like to understand some people's lenses. Yeah. Well, April: this is a fun tip that you can use that we've, um, made up for ourselves when driving I 4. We drive interstate a lot. Um, when someone drives by and they're cutting people off and just being a [00:17:00] complete moron, you can just assume that all of them Have a woman in labor in the backseat and she's going to pop out a baby any moment and they're just trying to get to the hospital. Yep. If you assume that any car speeding like an idiot, even if it's like a two seater Corvette, just assume there's a woman in the trunk, pregnant, trying to have a baby and you feel better about it and you're calm and you're able to have patience. So yeah, follow us for more tips. Leslie: Alright, what you got next? April: The next one is a post by the account Dr. Nora. "Alexa, show me the unnervingly large Venn diagram of people who hate immigrants. But love to take 23andMe tests to find out exactly what type of immigrant their family once was." [00:18:00] It's just wild. That one, I mean, it's pretty like self explanatory, but it's just wild. Like I don't even know what to say because it's true. It is so true. Do you have anything to add to that? This one was just more, like, funny, and, you know, she used the word unnerving. Yes. Leslie: Yeah, I'm not sure there's much that needs to be added to that. I mean, people, it's just, we're just all such hypocrites, aren't we? April: Right. Well, again, we only can see the things that affect us directly. We have a very hard time looking outside ourselves. Right. Which is funny, because if we're spending so much time thinking about ourselves, you'd think we'd be a little more self aware and a little more healthier. [00:19:00] But it's the wrong kind of self attention that we're giving ourselves. Leslie: Yeah. I, um, not to get off track, but this is kind of one of those, we just, we don't even know how hypocritical we are like when we're being like right smack dab in the middle of hypocrisy, we were walking one morning and we saw the back of a car that had a lot of stickers on it. And I always enjoy looking at stickers on the back. It tells you a lot about somebody. But I guess that's very much judging, right? But, I mean, you put them on there, so you're identifying who you are, right? Um, so on the, the top corner was, God is good. So obviously, this person feels like they're a Christian, right? Or religious, and God is good. And there was another one on there that was talking about not all who, who wander are lost, explore, and All kinds of things. But then right next to the God is good [00:20:00] one is if you voted for Biden, stay back 500 feet. I don't trust your judgment. April: Right. I think Jesus would definitely say that. Leslie: Yeah. I mean, I, I think he would. But anyways. Like, come on people. Can you at least look at the stickers on the backs of your cars and make sure that they all match? Like. April: Are they all sending the same message? The tone, it should be the same. Right. Don't contradict yourself. Because the one completely disqualifies the others. Right. Alright. Anyways. Alright. Was that, who's next? Me? Or you? Uh, you. That one was, okay. Yeah. I think so, yeah. It's me. Alright. Sorry about that, folks. Alright. Folks. Leslie: So mine is... I don't even know what account this is, but the meme says, "The [00:21:00] enemy of feminism isn't men, it's patriarchy. And patriarchy is not men, it's a system. And women can support the system of patriarchy, just as men can support the fight for gender equality." So, I know we have a lot of talks in the house, uh, especially with your daughter around smashing the patriarchy. Um, and all that's great, and I know, you know, you also have a son, and so we want to make sure that he is not feeling like we hate men by any, any, you know. Yes. Any of those conversations, and I think that's important to understand that. You know, as a man, I'm sure you can feel targeted. April: Right. I never want him to be in a circle of us and feel like he needs help. Right. Leslie: Or to shrink him down, right? I want him to feel like he has, he is learning how to be an ally and how to do his part. Cause [00:22:00] everybody has a part or a role in playing in smashing the patriarchy. And if you are a man, uh, or a woman, or, non gender fluid individual, whoever you are, any human being walking around on this planet has, you're either doing something to support the system or you're doing something to break the system down and rebuild the system. And it doesn't matter what gender you are, you can still make choices and do things that push equality, true equality. Not equality for some, and not for others, right? Like, genuine equality, and, and you can, you can play a huge role in that whether you're a man or a woman or, or whoever. Um, so, that one just really stuck out with me because I think a lot of people just feel like, Oh, you know, feminism is anti man, and that's, that's just not the case. Right. [00:23:00] You know, it's, it's anti oppression of women. And so if you're a man who is scared of feminism, that means that you are okay with women being oppressed. Right? If you are a man who is okay Or sub human. If you are a man who is okay with our current systems in life, our structures of how society works, if you don't feel like there's anything wrong, then you are supporting the patriarchy. You are supporting white supremacy. You are supporting capitalism. You are supporting all the structures that are in place that are currently oppressing a large population that lives in this country and around the world. So, don't take it personal. Educate yourself on what patriarchy actually is. And then see what small things, start with small things that you can do to actually help advance, the movement against restructuring these systems. Right. Because I think it's going to take everybody. April: I think we should do an episode at [00:24:00] some point about the ways that we do support the patriarchy. Because we do it daily, all of us. Right. Um, and then ways that we can maybe change a little bit of things to... Stop that. But I think, you know, being aware of what those things look like is important. Because, like you said, not even everybody knows what it is. You know? Ken didn't know. He had to... Leslie: Oh, the Barbie movie. Yeah. Yeah. April: He had to learn it. It was Barbie's world. He was just living in it. Right. I mean... He didn't even have a home. Leslie: As it should be. Go ahead. April: Wow. Okay. The next one that I have... This is the last one, by the way. Yes. This one's from the account voters for equality. Um, and this is posted by a fellowship congregational church on their sign out in the yard. It says, "history without discomfort is propaganda." And [00:25:00] so, yeah. We, especially in our state here in Florida, , We're really scared of people learning real history for some reason because they think that it's promoting a specific agenda, whereas their suppressing of actual history is an agenda. Leslie: Right. Yeah. There was another meme that said when white history is like, uh, April: the curriculum, anything else is an elective, that's a problem. Leslie: Yeah. That should tell you, tell you what. April: It says white "privileges when your history is the curriculum and every other history is an elective." Yeah. Those two can definitely go hand in hand, but if we want to do anything worthwhile and change, it's going to require discomfort for everybody. Absolutely. And you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. And just resolve that in your mind because that is the only. [00:26:00] That's the only way that we're going to grow. You have to have the growing pains. Leslie: Yeah, and again, that's like a, another situation of not taking something personally. Because you can read history and understand what uh, people in this country or other countries did 400 years ago, and not take it personal that you did it. I get that, but it's also having awareness of how are you benefiting from what was happening. 400 years ago today. April: Right. The same thing that you were saying about how we support, continue to support the patriarchy. We continue to support racism without even knowing it. Right. Every day. Leslie: We're the fish in the water. Right. And the water is racism and white supremacy. So, you know, it's... If you're comfortable all the time, you're not growing. Right. And, you know, how, how can you... I mean, I guess there's people out there that are perfectly fine with, with not learning anything new, [00:27:00] you know? Um, it's, it's sad because... April: Well, I don't feel like that's actually living. It's not. If you are just a robot and you're just stagnant, how is that life? Yeah. That sounds horrible. Leslie: Right, but people, like you were saying when you kicked this off, you know, people are fearful of that outside world. People are fearful of going out into the world because that's, you know, bad things live out there. So we don't want to... We don't want to learn anything different. We don't want to do anything different. We just want to, you know, stick to what we know and this whitewashed... April: But when we know what we know is incorrect, that creates war. Leslie: Right, but you have to know that what you know is incorrect. Right, April: or admit that it's possible that something has been delivered incorrectly. Leslie: Right, I mean you've got like... Our parents generation, or the boomer generation that went to school during a very specific time, they had a very specific narrative. April: No, you can't tell them that their history books had wrong [00:28:00] information in it. Right. It's, it is actually devastating for them. Leslie: Or if they even remember what their history books said. Why not? Because, you know, it's been decades and decades and decades since they were in school, April: right? Well, they know the main things, and the main things are in concrete. Leslie: Right. For them, anyway. Yeah. Pilgrims came. Right. April: They were friends with the Indians. Leslie: Friends with the Indians. They had turkeys together. Right. Pumpkin pie. Yeah, corn, corn mazes. And they went skipping off into the... They had like a fall festival. Yeah. And Thanksgiving. April: And they went skipping around the river bend. Leslie: Right. And that Christopher Columbus was amazing because he discovered America. Right. Right. If these are narratives that you believe... April: Slash brought diseases. Leslie: Slash slaughtered indigenous people. Right. Committed genocide. April: We're not judging. Leslie: Well, that's not judging. That's called his, that's called facts. I guess so, yeah. So there is a line between judgment and actually speaking the truth. I mean, you can, like, can you have an opinion on whether Christopher Columbus came and [00:29:00] committed genocide? April: No. I mean. It's not really up for debate. Leslie: I guess you can have an opinion but if your opinion is that he was just super happy because he discovered a new world and everybody was hunky dory when they got, you know, here, then you're not educated on this topic. April: Right. Well, ignorance is bliss, right? Leslie: If you're still celebrating Columbus Day, then that's an issue. April: Crack a book. Yeah. Well, maybe not. Maybe not the ones that we have. Leslie: Right. Don't crack a book. Because our books that are currently in the system, um, are full of just whitewashed topics. Right. Anyways. What's your last one? I already did my three. You did your last one? Yeah. Oh, you started. Yeah. Right. Oh. So. Alright, well. We obviously can't count. April: We have many, many more of these, and I would definitely, you know, warn you not to get all of your information off of a meme by any means. Definitely. Um, but the ones that are thought [00:30:00] provoking and encourage conversation, um, those are always great and it's important to follow diverse accounts and, um, just educational accounts as well. And we do a lot of that, so. Leslie: Yeah. You know what I mean? I would challenge everybody to go through their social media feeds and see, uh, how many black authors that you follow or, um, you know. women, or people of the, uh, any person of color. Yeah. April: Um, they all have valuable things to say and we, we can learn from all of these communities immensely. And we can learn how to communicate with each other. Leslie: Right, right. So, we would love to see any memes that you might have. , we have social media accounts. Uh, it's a seat. The number four? At A Seat For You. Um, yeah. A Seat For You. Well, they're all in our, on our website and, in our show notes. But, you can, share a meme with us by, DMing, [00:31:00] DMing us the meme. And we can maybe repost it or, or mention you on our social media feed. , yeah. And just reach out if you have any topics that you'd like us to, to discuss. We have a contact form on there as well. And, you know, people have asked us before, Oh, this is, you know, a great podcast. Anything I can do to help you. Um, yeah, tell a friend if you, if there's somebody out there in your world that you think might enjoy, some of the topics that we have discussed so far, please share it with them. That's the best way, I think, organically to get this out to the people that might need to hear something. April: Right. Or if you have someone that would be, uh, great to interview for us. that would be really great too. Cause we want to interview, we want everyone to have a seat at the table, but we don't know all the different types of people. We don't have those, every type of person in our, in our direct circle. We would love to, um, we've just not been afforded that just yet. So if you have someone that [00:32:00] you'd like to introduce us to, we would absolutely love that. Leslie: Yes. So, um, like April said, if you're interested in being interviewed or just have a story to share that you would like to have on our podcast, um, we have another couple of episodes in season one and then season two will be kicking right off afterwards with the interview, series. So, reach out and, until next time, have a great week.

Leslie: Hear ye, hear ye, another episode of The Seat for You. No. April: The Seat for You? Leslie: I was confused. A Seat for You podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Leslie​ April: And I'm the other one. April, yo mama. Leslie: Yo, wow. Alright, so, um, yeah. The last episode. The last episode was, uh, a little intense. We got, uh, immediate reaction like we've never received before from, uh, from friends and family and acquaintances and other listeners.Messages. Yeah. So, um, April, do you want to kind of recap? The last episode, briefly, April: like. Well, that wasn't in the list of things to do. Recap the whole last episode? Well, no. Our longest episode yet? You want me to just recap it? Leslie: No, I'm saying. On the fly? I'm saying, set the scene for the people. Okay. You had the, you had the run in with the principal's office at your last religious establishment. April: Yeah, I shared.[00:02:00] Involving some personal property that was confiscated and never given back, um, regarding just some assumptions of things and the common reaction was really, uh, anger and what's the word, dumbfoundedness, I guess. People were angry and dumbfounded. Yeah. Um, and that was, those were the reactions basically. And so I was talking to Leslie about this earlier and you know how when you're watching a documentary about a cult, you're sitting there thinking, how could somebody believe this? How, how were they sold on this type of life and how did they get there? Like, what's wrong with [00:03:00] them that they would concede to all of this? And the reactions from this past episode were that of like, what I ask when I watch documentaries about cults, they were the same reactions, you know, like, how could people do that? Like, Leslie: it was shock and awe. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I got, um, a message from a friend that was just, you know, That basically said, you know, she was just angry listening to this episode, especially about the part where, uh, I was being judged for my hair. Um, and it, it is just disturbing, you know, kind of what, what goes on. So, I mean, I remember asking the question last episode about, you know, weigh in, if you. If you think [00:04:00] that was a toxic environment or perfectly fine, I think you got your answer. Yeah. April: I'm going to say I think I got my answer Um, and today at the Dunkin Donuts, Leslie's on a meeting. I'm on my computer doing some work things and there's this older guy. Um, he's in there kind of just talking to everybody and he passed our table and kind of stopped, looked at me, looked at Leslie and put a card A business card down on the Leslie: table. No, let me pause you for a second. He didn't just look at me. Like I'm literally on a zoom meeting, discussing something very important, like engaged in conversation. And I see this older gentleman and I mean, pretty older, like early eighties. Um, like standing next to our table. Like bent over like trying to April: I thought he was gonna ask me a question. Leslie: Yeah, like look me in the eye Like I'm [00:05:00] engaging in a conversation and you've got somebody like trying to Interject themselves into our space for sure, April: right? He just threw the business card down on the table And he's like you should join us sometime or I forget what he said, but I read the card. I Have it. 

Leslie: Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of A Seat For You podcast. Number eight. Number eight. Wow, we're like numero ocho. Making headway. Um, so today we recorded a little bit differently. We actually recorded the body of the podcast first, uh, and now we're recording the intro afterwards. Um, but we did that for a purpose because we didn't really know what was going to come out of April's mouth this week. So, uh, today you're going to, yeah, today you're going to hear a story, um, about Personal experiences that Abrel had within, um, her past church. And, uh, I personally think that you're just gonna be, like, just floored when you hear, when you hear these, these things. April: But, uh, it's Personal experience also known as [00:01:00] weird church crap. Leslie: Religious trauma. At your finest. Um, so yeah. Hope you enjoy. It's really about, um, you know, boundaries. I think boundaries are something that we all need in our life in some form or fashion, whether it's boundaries at your workplace, boundaries with family, um, boundaries with friends, um, but it's very clear that if you are a part of a religious institution, You need some boundaries there too. April: Well, understanding you need them is key. Yeah. Awareness. Yes, awareness. Awareness is key. Figuring out that it's okay to set them. Yeah. Leslie: So, um, Yeah. We're just gonna, we're just gonna jump right in the conversation. So, just, you're just gonna be joining right in the middle. So, have fun.[00:02:00] April: Well, when I was thinking about what we were talking about today I was like, well is this Is this considered like a spiritual abuse situation or was it just, is it just weird? Because it could be like both. I don't want to be overdramatic and be like that spiritual abuse if it's really just odd. You know what I mean? If it's just like a weird boundary behavior. And so I kind of, I Googled it. Oh, I Googled what is considered spiritual abuse. And chat GBT. Actually was answering me on the side of the screen. So Google was coming up, but over here, chat GPT was already working. And like just line after line after line of, if you don't know how chat GPT works, it takes information that already exists on the interwebs and basically [00:03:00] formulates an answer. And that's what it was doing. And it was interesting because I was like, look at you chat GPT, you know what you're talking about. So this is the way. I didn't even look at the Google things. I looked at what ChatGPT said because it's gonna compile everything I'm gonna find and so it says Taking someone's oh, well this I asked is taking someone's book away considered spiritual abuse And so it's like this seems like a really silly question or like something a fifth grader might ask, you know Mm hmm, but I was an adult and so it seems like I felt like a child in this moment, so I guess it works. And so ChatGPT said, taking someone's book away by itself is not inherently considered spiritual abuse. However, whether it constitutes spiritual abuse or not depends on the context and intent behind the action. Spiritual abuse typically involves the misuse of spiritual [00:04:00] or religious beliefs to manipulate, control, or harm someone emotionally, psychologically, or physically. Or physically, if taking someone's book away is done with the intent to control their access to certain beliefs, ideas, or knowledge, and is accompanied by coercive or manipulative tactics to enforce a particular spiritual religious perspective, then it may be considered a form of spiritual abuse. Well, there you go. However, if taking someone's book away is done for reasons unrelated to their spiritual or religious belief, Such as concerns about the content being inappropriate or harmful in a different way. It may not be classified as spiritual abuse. Right? So which is it? You know what I mean? Leslie: So, oh, okay. Time pause, time out. What do you mean? Which is it? Okay, we need to back up. Okay. You first. We need to set the scene so the people understand what we're talking about. All right? So, okay. Because, because I. It worries me that you have a [00:05:00] question. Like I'm, I'm worried now that you're, you're confused. I feel like you have 42 years of brainwashing done that is stopping you from seeing the clear answer here. April: Well, it's like I saw the clear answer until I read that other paragraph. Because then it's, that is, that was where, like, I feel like that was their mindset. The second paragraph encompasses what they were thinking. Right. So, let me tell the story. Leslie: Yeah, let's, let's set the scene. April: Okay, picture it. Picture it. Transport yourself here. 2019? 20? 20, probably. I think it's COVID year. Maybe 21. Yeah, I, I don't think it was really that long ago. Okay, maybe 2021. At the, at the previous religious facility I was attending, I'm not going to say names. Um, [00:06:00] I was involved in a situation where I was kind of in the middle of, I won't say in the middle in a bad way. I was in the middle in kind of a, uh, like the guy in the middle of a wrestling rink. The referee. Is he, is he still called referee? Mm hmm. And there are people in the corners duking it out and I'm, You know, the Enneagram nine trying to like be the peacemaker. And so I was in this situation between two of my really close friends and they were dealing with a pretty nasty divorce in which one of the parties was kind of upheld in a way they shouldn't have been. And by the church encouraged in. You know, there was a lot of like support and backing there. Whereas the other party was the offender and they were not treated [00:07:00] the same. Right. And the whole situation was really kind of messed up in it. Leslie: So the church got pulled into a divorce. Well, because the people that were involved in this marriage were within the church, kind of, April: right? Yeah, they were in the church and they both served. Um, they both had leadership type positions and, um, things that had accumulated over, over decades time came to a head and my one friend always knew that she'd be considered the bad guy when all of this was said and done, even though Behind the scenes at home, it was a completely different dynamic that they didn't know of, but they're always going to uphold the man. I'm just going to say it. They upheld the man and made sure that he was getting good on his feet, but still considered way more grace for the dude, way more grace than for the woman, [00:08:00] right? So there's the setting. And I was reading a book at the time by Glennon Doyle and what's that book called? Um. The cheetah one? No, that's not the cheetah one. Yeah. Is it the cheetah one? Untamed? Untamed. So I was reading Untamed. And it's a really good book. And really it's about, you know, kind of finding your own voice and kind of standing your ground and, you know, trusting that your gut is not lying to you and, you know, just kind of like finding your strength within yourself after being smashed down for a really long time. That's basically the premise of the book. And so, I thought it'd be great for her to read. And, so, there was one night, She had not got home, or she was inside the house or something like that. I was dropping off a book or something. I was dropping it off. Well, husband comes out. This is before, you know, everything was final. They were still living [00:09:00] in the same house. I hand the book over. I should have never done that. And he never actually gave it to her. He actually flipped through it and read some of it and then turned it into the preacher. So basically turned it into the principal's office, never even let it go through the hands of the person it was supposed to go to. And so a little while later, maybe a couple of days, I don't know how much time went by. I get called into the principal's office. I say the principal's office because as a child, I lived in the principal's office. I went to a private school. And I was just in trouble all the time. It was talking, being too active, getting out of my chair. I don't know. I can't help that I was smarter than everybody else and I was bored. And so I got up and helped people with their things. And I got tallies all the time. I got hullabaloo tallies. Do you know what hullabaloo means? I don't know what a tally is. It's a pipe cleaner cut in half. That was what our tallies were. And everybody had a cup with their name on it in [00:10:00] each color pipe cleaner. Tally meant something else. So if you got like a yellow one, you were kind of being disruptive. If you got a blue one, it means you're making noise. So hullabaloo means noise, and I got the hull blue tallies all the time. If you get a red one, like two red ones, you go straight to the principle. Got those a lot too. Anyway. And so this, this situation felt just like that. I reverted back to my seven year old self that felt like she was about to get paddled because corporal punishment was a thing back then. And I, I got paddled so much. Leslie: Was this a... April: It's a wonder I have a butt. Leslie: Was this a religious school? April: Yes. Okay. Um, got locked in the closet there. That's another, that's a whole nother story. That's, that would trigger an investigation, I feel. Now it would, for sure. I'd be like on... Bay News 9. [00:11:00] Yeah. Anyway, so this situation kind of triggered that PTSD, and like when I was asked to come in. And like, you know, the pastor, super sweet guy. I've been friends with them a long time, and so he kind of is a little bit like my personality where he doesn't want there to be conflict, but he knows that he has to like deal with people on certain things and like resolve the situation because you got to like make everybody happy. And so I get called in and then I'm called in with like another pastor as well. So you've got two pastor, men pastors in with a woman by the, by herself. And I'm getting questioned about this book. Like, what was your purpose of giving her this book? And I'm like, is there like subliminal Hitler messages in it? Like, why am I being called in here for this book? I really couldn't understand why. And basically it was said to them [00:12:00] that it was encouraging divorce. It was encouraging her to leave him, which was the fear anyway. And so it, it was like, I was encouraging her to leave. And I'm like, that is not the case. So I had to sit there and explain myself as to why I chose to lend my book to her. And it was like an hour and a half, two hour long conversation and me having to explain why I thought she should read it. And if they actually read it, they would have understood, but they were not taking my side on it. Lo and behold, they kept my book. They never gave it back to me. And then I went on with my merry way or whatever when the conversation was over. And so that is why I looked up. Is that considered spiritual abuse? Because when I came back and I shared this with Leslie, she was like floored. [00:13:00] She was about to drive up there and, and get it. Leslie: Well, also because another reason was I actually pre ordered this book for you to be autographed by Glennon Doyle. And so it was. It wasn't just like a book you ran down to Barnes and Noble and picked up off the shelf. Like, there was a reason you had this. April: Her hand was in it and she signed it. Right. Leslie: And so then you were gonna lend it to a friend to read and then it gets confiscated by the establishment. Right. This is my point of view. By this religious establishment who, in my opinion, I'm like, who the hell do you think you are? Like, who, who, who authorized you, I sound like an owl, who authorized you to be the, the law and order pastor of what someone in your [00:14:00] congregation is allowed to read in their free time. And then you keep the effin book? Like, I. I still, I feel like it just happened right now. Like, re listening to this story. April: Your shoulders are up by your ears. Leslie: Yeah, because it, it infuriates me. I mean, it's just like, and then to hear you read at the beginning of this, the two different versions and you're like, well, I don't know, maybe they weren't coming from their perspective, they saw it as harmful content. Right. Well, from their perspective, they think women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. April: Well, that might be a little extreme. Leslie: That's it! Feel free to weigh in on our, on our website. Yeah, so, do you feel like this was spiritual abuse or not? I'd like to know. I'm gonna lean towards, yeah, I think maybe it was. April: But I do also, the problem with me, and you know, being grown, raised in this environment my entire life, and also being someone who's able to see both [00:15:00] sides of almost everything, is that I can see both sides. I see where they were coming from, where they would think, Like, well, I don't, they were, I guess there was so much fear in that this one little book would put her over the edge. Leslie: Yeah. But just because you can see their side doesn't mean their side was right. Right. Now I get it. Okay. Just because you can understand their point of view. I mean, I can understand the point of view that they're coming from. Like I said, they have a very clear agenda. Very clear. It doesn't mean it's right. They had overextended their reach into the lives of private people. And the fact that, first off, any type of organization or business Should never have two men and a woman in an off closed door office, right? Okay. I don't care what kind of, if it's a church, if it's a business, if it's a school, that is a bad look from the very beginning. April: And I, [00:16:00] and they typically, I don't think would do that, but because I'm like, ironically, I'm like family to them. So it probably didn't seem like the same situation. I would be like, uh. A sister or a best friend in the room with them, you know what I mean? And so I think that that's probably why it was okay in that moment for them. But like looking back, I, that was not, that was very intimidating for me. And so for me, I, and I don't feel like I, I feel like I'm getting better with this, but if, if I'm being like, come at with something or being like questioned. In a negative tone, I kind of like shut down and my words that I would have, don't come out the way that I would like them to. And so of course I've had so, I've had this conversation with them like a thousand times [00:17:00] since then with all of the things I should have said or could have said or would needed to say, but I didn't have those words then. Probably as soon as I got in the car, I did. Had some, but this is a, this is one of the situations it's kind of added to others that we'll talk about. Leslie: So you also brought this up to your therapist. April: I did, but I brought it up in addition to the other things. Because there was also the time that I was called into the principal's office because I was seen on Facebook in pictures with you. Who has short, spiky hair. It is obvious what you represent to them. And so I was called in for questioning because I was hanging out with someone. With a member of the alphabet mafia. Right. And my question to them, which I was proud of myself [00:18:00] for being able to actually voice this in the office, because it was just mind blowing to me that what, what they had was a picture. Or someone stalking my Facebook, and I was in a picture with someone who had short hair. So obviously that person represents something bad, right? Mm hmm. Only because of your hair did they know that. Right. So they made an assumption off of what you looked like, that that's what you represent. Right. So I said, so if she had long hair, I wouldn't be here right now? And they were like, well, you know, No, if she had, if she looked a little different. Right, if I looked more feminine. I wouldn't have been there. I would just, I would just like a girlfriend. Because I don't get questioned with my, when I take the same picture with any of my other friends. Right. I don't get called into the office when I take pictures with them. Right. And so it went from that hmm.[00:19:00] And it doesn't matter if they were right or wrong, it was the way that it was brought up. Right. And it was the way that it was handled. Leslie: Again, clearly, overreaching, crossing boundaries. April: And even by their own standards, it was the incorrect way to approach a situation. Because, biblically, if we're gonna, we're gonna throw that in there, because that's what they thought they were, thought they were doing the right thing. If you consider someone a friend, which again, I've known these people decades at this point, we definitely would have considered each other friends. We've been to each other's houses. We, our kids have grown up together. We've been involved in each other's lives for a long time. It's a lifetime. You, if you see something questionable, if I see one of my friends and it looks like they're cheating on their spouse, am I going to go straight to the preacher? You know, what a [00:20:00] crappy friend am I if I do go straight to the preacher with it? You go to your friend, be like, Hey, what's up? Is there something going on that we could talk about maybe? Or I have some questions. Can we talk about something? I'd be happy to talk to you. You may not agree with what I say, it doesn't matter. But you come to, you go to your friend and you bring it up to them in that way. And then if you still see something or whatever, then you bring a friend with you or your spouse or whatever. And then you kind of bring a second person into the conversations where there's like three of you talking. Then, if it's still that way, and you still have questions, and you don't feel like anything's being changed or different, only then do you talk to maybe the person in charge. In the patriarchy. We'll go there. That's when, that's when I should have been called in. After all of those other things happened first. But [00:21:00] this didn't happen just one time. I think it happened three different times. At this point I feel like I've spent so much time in there that I don't even remember how many times it was. At least twice, possibly a third. And I think it was about to happen again right before I'm like, you know what, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm pretty done with this place. Yeah. It was about to happen again and I was like, uh, so, so by their own standards, even by that they did it wrong. It was wrong. The way that they threw just literally just threw me under a bus. Mm hmm. And. Then when I, you know, decided to leave, I get, you know, messages. I thought we were friends. Are you kidding? A friend doesn't treat somebody like this because I know good and well you wouldn't have done that to any of your other friends. That you, I see you hanging out with. [00:22:00] You don't go straight to the person in charge or whatever. You, you ask them about it. You talk to your friend about it if you see something going on. You know what I mean? Leslie: Oh, oh, I know what you mean because I would never, I don't understand this going to, uh, going to somebody else that's in charge. Like, I guess that's my question for you is like, what kind of environment is, is this? April: At one point during one of these, you know, uh, situations when I was in the office, at one point there were three men in there with me. Hmm. Yeah. That's not intimidating at all. Right. And so I did not have the, again. Didn't feel like I could say all that I really needed and wanted to say. Right. I said enough. Leslie: Well, they weren't going to listen to you anyway. I mean, think about it. If they had the audacity to pull a woman into an office to discuss these, she said, he said. [00:23:00] Crap. Oh, oh, I saw a picture. Or, oh, you're reading a book, or, oh, like if they already had that kind of audacity to feel like they needed to pull you into a closed door session and discipline you, right. April: You're not changing their mind down to, they wanted me to admit to things so that I could step down off of being on the worship team. Oh, I could still attend church there. Thank you very much. Right. But I would no longer be able to be in any kind of leadership position. Hmm. If there was, you know, a relationship or anything like that. Leslie: Right. If you were a sheep that was led astray. And so, yeah, and so like... You're not allowed to play the drums. a... April: I couldn't be in any leadership position. Leslie: I gotta tell you, man, like... [00:24:00] I just think... April: I, and so with that, you, I mean, you add that to like where my thoughts were already going with this, you know, like learning more and more about how harmful the system I've grown up in can be to people who are outside of it. Mm-hmm. . So you add that to that and it was the, it was the last straw for me. Mm-hmm. , I was done. Leslie: Why is this how churches work? Like, how did this even start happening? April: What? Bringing people in? Like, what? What do you mean? Leslie: Yeah, like, who? Why is that the process? April: Well, you got people in, and now if I was not someone in leadership, they may have been handled differently. But someone who was like in leadership, which is why, you know, like my friends that were going through the divorce, why that was such a big ordeal. Because they were, we were all in leadership. [00:25:00] And, um, so just because you are in the band makes you a leader. Yeah. Well, you're in a leadership position. Technically. Yeah. Even though I would sit behind a plexiglass cage every day, I don't really talk to people from, from there. Leslie: That's a really like interesting controlling manipulative system. Well, I mean, just, just because somebody wants to. , like use their talent and play music for a group of people. You get treated like this for anything that goes on. April: Well, 'cause you have to be above reproach. Basically. You have to yourself, are you Jesus to a different standard? No. Are you Jesus? But if you are a teacher or a leader, you have to kind of basically live by tighter rules if you're an example. And so if I am. You know, Out there, you know getting [00:26:00] sloshed on Saturday night and then coming and being a leader on Sunday That's kind of weird, right? Mm hmm. Well, I mean, that's how I've been raised like you don't you don't show up Sunday hungover from Saturday. Mm hmm, you know or you know if I got high Saturday night and then led worship the next day That's not a, like, a Christ like attitude. Leslie: Right, but if you read Glennon Doyle's book, that also isn't a Christ like attitude, apparently. April: It's, right, no. You're, right. No, I'm not sure they would have, like, you know, fired me from, from my position over the book. Right. Leslie: But. So I guess, for those of you who may not understand who Glennon Doyle is, apparently she was like a, A rock star of the Christian community for a long time. Christian mommy blogger. Um, April: yeah, she, she traveled with women of faith, wrote lots of books. I saw her speak on several occasions [00:27:00] while she was still married to her husband. Um, Leslie: and then, and then she had a, an amazing light bulb that went off and she actually realized that, um, she was not, uh, Um, met to be in a heterosexual relationship and found love with Abby Wambach, U. S. women's national team, soccer hall of fame, legend player. And, um, you know, if you, if you don't know who she is, I definitely encourage you to listen to the, we can do hard things podcast and, and read, read the book and, and get to know, um, it's not encouraging you to divorce your spouse. April: No, it's the opposite, encouraging you to find your own voice because you are your own person. Yes, when you get married you're supposedly one unit, whatever But you're still your own person. You still have Yeah, two separate parts two separate lives. Yes, and it's okay to make your own decisions and [00:28:00] think for yourself Which is like, you know, well, that's really hard for like our parents and grandparents It's a they are like so connected that they won't make decisions on their own Well, they don't that what I'm learning every day Every day, I'm learning that the organized church, especially certain denominations like Southern Baptists, um, they don't want you with the autonomy to make your own decisions. Leslie: They want you to be as submissive as possible and rely on your husband or your pastor. Or your congregation to lead you down whatever path they want you to go down and they want to make the decisions for you. I mean, again, episode one, they gave you a fricking pamphlet to tell you how to vote. They don't [00:29:00] trust that you can make any kind of, uh, decision on your own. And it's baffling to me. It is so baffling the control and the manipulation that this, that these organizations have over people. And I'm so thankful that I was not raised in the church. So, so thankful. April: Well, maybe that specific kind, I mean, there are, there's definite like positive things because there's a community, you know, I mean, there's definite, I don't want to like just bash the church. Leslie: Well, I have community outside of the church. All those things exist. I think, I think when you are old enough. To then learn, like I'm learning now, I'm not talking about Jesus because I actually am enjoying learning about the teachings of Jesus and, and all of that. So, don't get me wrong in thinking that I'm lumping it all together. It is the organization of the church. Right. That is the issue. Yeah. [00:30:00] They are, they do not operate in a space that acts like Jesus or that, you know, what, what is coming out of their mouths on a Sunday? Is. It's not what their actions show Monday through Saturday, and it's, it's very clear with everything else that they're involved in, right? But this is just one little sliver of an example of how warped their minds are and how much control that some of these pastors think that they have over the lives of other people to where you think you have in, in, in this great free country of the United States where everybody has a Freedom of speech and first amendment rights that you have the power to bring someone into your office and take away their own personal belonging. April: No, I never asked for it back either. But they, I shouldn't have had to ask for it back. Leslie: You shouldn't have ever [00:31:00] had to be in there in the first place. It's none of their freaking business what books you read. April: It's nobody's business. And I think what it boils down to and for that situation especially. When someone cannot effectively communicate with their spouse because they've never been able to. They couldn't communicate that concern with that, with their spouse because they never actually went to my friend to tell her that I brought a book by. Right. He went straight there because he doesn't know how to communicate, did not know how to communicate with his wife. That's, that is a, in your home, private argument if you want to have it. But he didn't know how to have that argument or communicate, which was very foundational in this whole thing. Mm hmm. And so he used somebody else to communicate it. Right. Instead of, you know, like if you're a sibling, instead of just like going and having an argument with your brother or sister, they went [00:32:00] straight to mom. Right. Straight to dad. Handle this for me. Very weak minded individuals. Like, I'm going to whine about this so you can handle it for me. Yeah. So, but yes, I took this to my therapist actually pretty recently because I woke up one night and it's been more than one time, but in the middle of the night I woke up and my mind just clicked on literally like a light switch and I was replaying this, these scenes in my head. It's been almost two years now and it probably has been two years since I was first called in there. I It's been a while now. Um, and for some reason, these scenes like a movie were just playing in my head. And I was getting like angry about them all over again and upset because it was painful and it hurt because of who these people were and how I was being treated with it. And, and so in my head, I was like [00:33:00] saying all of the things that I wish I would have said. And I wish I, you know, I wish you can like, Have your brain make notes for you so that you can read them again when you actually do wake up out of your oblivion. Because I know that what I was saying was really good, but I don't remember every word. Because I was kind of in that state of mind where you just allow yourself to say things and you're not hindered, you know? Mm hmm. And, and so I was like, I should not be... Um, having these conversations still, I shouldn't still be upset about this because I could not go back to sleep after this one particular night. And it, I think I woke up around three or four in the morning, never went back to sleep because of it. And I would, apparently, obviously I'm still upset about something, I'm not over that. And so I brought this up, told her the whole thing, my therapist, and she kind of looked at me sideways like, what? They did, they had, [00:34:00] they said what, like, it was very confusing. So when you go outside of like your bubble and you tell people things, they're like, are you serious? And so sometimes saying them out loud, you feel even more crazy because you're like, yeah, that does sound kind of odd. Sounds a little messed up. And so my homework was to write them a letter with all the things that I needed to say in it. And, you know, I can burn it on the burn pile if I want to. Leslie: Or you could mail it to them. April: No. No. Leslie: I mean, I'll drive it up there and deliver it. April: I'm sure you would. I will drive it. They'll know exactly who you are. Leslie: I know. My picture's famous, apparently. My hair's a little longer now, so maybe they're confused. Yeah. Maybe. Um, do you want to share what you would say to them, or? Do you have any lines of, of one liners that you feel like you would have, if you could [00:35:00] recreate the scene that you would like to throw out there into the mix? April: So, I think I want to share the letter that I wrote. And it may not be the same words that I dreamed about that I said, but it's from my awake heart. So, okay. Here it goes. Dear people of the institution. To the specific ones who decided that their being right was more important than my their friends and air quotes well being I wanted to share how these moments have impacted me But first I want to advise how things should go should another friend get thrown under a bus First if you notice something off or concerning about a friend whether it be a book or a post or whatever first consider if you are truly concerned or if you just need The information to report so that you can feel as though your life isn't so bad. If you've done this and still find yourself concerned, [00:36:00] call the friend up. Ask to talk over the phone, over coffee, whatever, but go to the friend. Not to a friend of the friend, not to a different friend, not to the principal's office, to that friend. A lot would probably get cleared up, and if not, it would at least open a line of communication. Second, if your concerns are derived off of Facebook or any other social media, consider your own social media accounts and how much of what you post gives the whole story. Next, if after these things have been truly considered, you still feel a necessary to involve others, have the decency to show your face. When others ask your friend to come for a meeting, not joining in makes it obvious that you aren't sure if this is what needs to happen, or if you were just being. A tattle tits. Ha ha ha. I was going to say tattle tail, but I didn't want to say that. And if for nothing [00:37:00] else, just so that your friend isn't alone in an office being interrogated by two men. Lastly, if the hairstyles of my friends or whomever I choose to share my time with is so important to you. Maybe consider why I share my time with certain people and why that isn't you. In order to be Christ like, you have to actually think like Christ. You have to ask all the fruitful questions regarding what you're doing, and really understand what you're trying to accomplish. Is it loving? Is it patient? Is it peaceful? Is it kind? Is it good? Does it point to joy? Does it exhibit faithfulness? Does it display self control? And so on. If the answer to any of these is no, then it's possible that the speck you're trying so desperately to remove from your friend's eye, you can't see good enough because of the log in your own eyes blocking the view. But understand this I forgive you and I thank you[00:38:00] because this has allowed me to see things as they really are It's freed me from the elephant sized anxiety that I didn't know I was carrying I've grown more in two years than I have in ten and I've learned more about Jesus being outside the walls than I ever did In it in short I finally get it and I pity you and others like you because I fear you wouldn't you never will So again, I forgive you and I forgive me Sincerely, Sincerely, your friend. Leslie: That was a darn good letter. Thanks. How do you feel like getting that off your chest? April: I feel better. Leslie: Do you feel like a weight is lifted? April: Yeah. [00:39:00] Like maybe I won't wake up in the middle of the night with dreams about it anymore. Right. That's sad. Cause it doesn't matter if they ever actually hear that, you know? It wouldn't, honestly it wouldn't. Would it make a difference? Probably not. Yeah. It always, it takes something. It takes something that's going to affect them personally. Leslie: Yeah. Well, I'm proud of you. Thanks. That was, that was a good job in, um, a very... Vulnerable thing to, to share with the world.[00:40:00] April: So I think that we can resolve that boundaries are necessary in your life, no matter where those are going to be placed. You know, and a lot of times when you're raised in church and you've always been involved, I've never not until, you know, these last couple of years when I've decided to just be a member of church and listen. And not be committed or obligated in serving, which I've never not served. Like as soon as I was old enough to serve, I was serving. And I think when you've been raised in that, it's, the boundary lines, they definitely get blurred because you feel like you always have to say yes to things and you, when you feel, when you do say no, even if it's like. thing for your physical [00:41:00] well being, you have immense guilt for it. And then if you like, if you do say no, you stick to it, you will like, make sure everyone knows that there was a reason. So like, you know, over explain yourself. Yes. And so growing up, like we never missed a Sunday. We never missed a Sunday. And I missed Wednesdays because I was at the gym, but we didn't miss church. And if we did. Like I remember my mom would call my grandparents to let them know they weren't going to be there. And why? And so like, and now you have, you know, social media. And so I'll see, I can, I can see behind people's posts so well when they're like somewhere else on a Sunday, or they just didn't feel like, maybe they just didn't feel like going, you know, like maybe you're just tired and you just need to sit home for the morning. Or, you know, if your kid has a sports game, which that's a whole nother podcast. Because some people are, like, really against kids playing sports on Sundays. [00:42:00] Anyway. But I'll see it behind a post. Um, decided to go do this. I sure hate missing Sunday mornings, but I'll be watching from the TV. You know, like, they're making sure you know that they're still gonna watch it. Even though they're not physically there. But they needed to let everyone know that they didn't just not go. Leslie: That's just so not what jesus is about. April: Right. But I'm saying like, when you've been raised in that, you, you blur, the lines are very blurry and it's hard to know what is about, what, what should be a boundary and what is just par for the course, like what is just like part of the territory. Leslie: You, you've drank the Kool Aid your whole life. April: That's what I'm saying. So it's hard to know where the boundaries are. So, you know, ask a preacher's wife about boundaries. That's really tough, you know, but you still have to have them. Hmm. And it's important to understand that A, it's [00:43:00] perfectly fine for you to have boundaries. Jesus had boundaries. When Jesus needed to be alone, Homeslice was alone. He went into the forest. By himself. He took naps. You want biblical? Go read about it. It's in there. Mm hmm. He had boundaries when he knew he needed to rest because he's been dealing with whining people all day long. He went and rested. He did what he needed to do so that he could be fresh for people the next day. And we don't do that. Mm mm. We run ourselves ragged and say yes to everything. And then we're giving 40 percent to everything. You can't give a hundred to everything. And then like with ministers, it's a, it's been a big problem. And that's why there's a lot of like divorce and marital issues within like preachers and ministers, because they don't know whether or not to put, because church and God are different. God first, your spouse, [00:44:00] second, children, church. But people put church and God, ministry, all of that is in the same block. And so that gets put number one, and then you have crap leftovers for your family. And then you have no relationship with your family. Don't spend time with your family or your kids. It's all about church. It's all about ministry. It's all about being there for everyone else, but not there for you and not there for the people that you have been entrusted with. And so those boundary lines are very hard for people who've grown up like that or been in that for that long. So now being just on the outside of it, I can see how very important it is, not just for your own, like actual health. Because I can tell you the moment that I stepped away from this environment, it was like an elephant got off [00:45:00] my shoulders. And I didn't realize there was that much stress involved because it was like I was showing up every week. And you just bury it. Is this going to be a thing where I just cry every podcast? Leslie: Well, I mean, I think it shows how painful this experience is and it's like, it shouldn't be. That's not what. Religion is supposed to be about and I think that's why there's so many people in this whole Deconstruction movement because they realize that it's so toxic I mean some of the some of these things that you're sitting here explaining Sound like a freaking cult you know, it's like if They brainwash you they control you they manipulate you they they make you To [00:46:00] where you have to walk on eggshells if you need to do something else on a Sunday and not show up. You know, they put guilt on you. Like, all of those things are not healthy things. You know? April: A lot of, shame. A lot of shame. Leslie: Yeah, and shame is a powerful tool. You know, and, and they can wield that shame and throw it around like, April: like shame is in the same vein as fear. You don't have shame without fear. You don't have fear without shame. And yet we preach from the pulpit that there's no fear in Jesus. Their perfect love drives out fear. So what is that saying? Right. That we are not operating in the vein of Jesus. We're operating in the vein of fear. Yeah. Well, everything that we do has shown itself as fear. The politics [00:47:00] we're involved in. You know, like all of the, the fear around certain types of people, like it's fear. It is all fear. Leslie: Well, it's also control that, right. That fear is driven by the power of, or the, the, the wanting and desire to maintain control and power, right? Because if they can make, if the narrative can make you fear fill in the blank, Then they always will control and have control and power over you because they can control the narrative. Right. So it's, it's a really smart plan. I mean, look how well it's done for, for religion. Yeah. You know, it's a tax free billion dollar empire. So it's Scientology. That is filled with, with, with patriarchy and social injustice. [00:48:00] And, I mean, it's, I don't know. I, I know that you do say that you got a lot of good out of it. And that's fine. I'm not saying any... April: You know, I have a lot of great memories and I think that's why there's sadness behind it. Leslie: Yeah, but it, you don't have to leave it all behind. April: You're not... I know, but you're still mourning, like, you're losing that part. Because you're in a different phase of life and it's like you're mourning the good things. Because, I know people say you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you kind of, you kind of do sometimes. Not an actual baby. I'm saying like, you know, sometimes you gotta, when you're walking away, you gotta walk away from all of it. Right. And so I think I, I mourn that because I would no longer be kind of on the same page. Leslie: Because people haven't, [00:49:00] Grown or changed or seen things in a different space because everybody's on their own paths. Right. So where you might be going down a different road, some of your friends or past friends may not be on that road. April: Well, even like myself, like even five years ago, if I saw me, or, you know, if I, if I came across a friend that was finding themselves on the same path that I'm on right now. I may have concern for myself. You know what I mean? Like I might be like, Ooh, you better be careful because I hadn't stepped out just enough yet. Oh, Leslie: I know. I mean, I, I witnessed it firsthand. I saw it all happen up close and personal. And it was very frustrating. April: I'm sure it was. Because I also like, it probably still is because I'm not, I'm not done with it. Leslie: I'm not. Yeah. But I mean, I think I. I think I understand it differently [00:50:00] now, like, whereas before, because I, I didn't understand the environment. And I mean, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I understand fully like you do, because I did not come up in that, right. But from what I've learned from you and, and have seen with my own eyes, it's, it's not as frustrating. I, it more, it just makes the situation makes me angry that, that there's a group of people out there that have the ability to do this to people and get away with it and, and, and do it with like, we're doing it for God. April: Yeah. And I mean, I'm not, I, I know people who have had way, way worse experiences than I had. You know what I mean? Than that. And I'm lucky to have been able to. Kind of leave on my own terms quietly, you know, whereas there's been people in [00:51:00] similar situations where it wasn't quiet and it wasn't on their own accord. You know what I mean? Like I was not asked to leave. I was, you know, that would be even more traumatic. I chose it on my own terms and I think that was helpful, but there are people who obviously have been through far worse than that. So, but I, you know, back to what I was saying, like I was, it was exhausting to walk in there every day or every Sunday or whenever I was there and put on this like wax coating and hope that I was exactly who people already thought that I was. Hope that I was living up to myself basically. Mm. And while Um, my heart never changed. I've never, my heart's never altered from anything, from any of my [00:52:00] beliefs. From day one, I've been the same soul this whole time. It's just the knowledge, the power of knowledge that people have about me will literally change your environment, you know, and some people have that knowledge and others did not. And. You know, I was trying to going in there and pretending that I was this unblemished human being and I couldn't, I couldn't handle that anymore. And I was never in their eyes. I would never be not, I would never not be, you know what I mean? Never not be blemished. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there will always be, I don't know, like a little, Leslie: like a stigma, like a little gray cloud following you all over the place. [00:53:00] Yeah. And April: then, you know, people talk, you know, and church people talk the most and who, I don't even know who knows at this point of, you know, all the things and I'm sure there's a great amount of people and I just don't care because I can't, I can't put any more energy into. Who knows my business and who doesn't. Yeah. As long as the people who I know care about me and have unconditional love for me, for wherever I am at in my life, and encourage me to grow, and encourage me to continue to learn, and seek the things that I need to seek. Those are the people who get to know all the things with me, and get to be part of my life. And I can't... I don't reserve it any longer for those who have no care of that. Right. They just want the juice. Leslie: And lucky for you [00:54:00] listening, you also get to have part of April's life. Because you get to eavesdrop on these conversations. April: Yeah, as long as you don't go talk crap. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Come for ya. Leslie: Just like, what was her name? Amber? April: Amber. Stupid, Amber. Leslie: Coming for you, Amber. April: So, boundaries. Yeah. Leslie: So, I'm sure this has, if you are part of the deconstruction movement, I'm sure you may have been triggered by some of the stories in this episode. Uh, or you've had some experience in the past. And if you're, if you're not involved in religion or haven't had, you know, like me, where you weren't really raised in that, you're probably dumbfounded by some of the stories that you just heard, because you just can't actually believe that crap like that happens in the, in this world. April: That's a pretty mild, those are pretty mild situations too, in comparison. [00:55:00] Leslie: But, uh, we would love to have you share your stories with us. Um, and, you know, we'll. Put them out on a feature. Is this abuse or not? Yeah. I think the case has been made. April: I still have questions, Leslie: really. Okay. I mean. Can you please send in voice memos to help April understand that this is in fact abuse. And if you want to put me in my place, feel free to go ahead and do that, so. All right. Until next time. April: See ya.

Episode 7- Leslie: [00:00:00] All right. On today's episode, we are talking about manufactured outrage. Last episode, we talked a little bit about rational and irrational fears. So we thought that we would dip our toe into a few, crisis points 2023, 2022. Um, That might, might actually be leading some of these fears, right? Irrational fears, probably. So, with the latest breaking news, April's gonna go ahead and give you, the most recent thing you probably need to be concerned with. April: Probably. Maybe. Uh, it's mostly on TikTok, and we've struggled to find it other places. Which should give you some kind of insight, [00:01:00] but apparently, on October the 4th, 2023, at approximately 2. 20pm, we are going to, well, okay, whoever got the COVID shot, what did they call it? The jab. Leslie: Whoever got the jab. April: Um, there is something that was injected in us, supposedly, that, Will be activated via a 5G signal through three pulses to their towers. And then from that we will be infected with the Marburg virus. And components of that will then turn us into zombies. Which really sucks. Because, you know, I don't like the sight of blood very much. Leslie: If you're a zombie, I think you don't care. [00:02:00] April: And as one TikTok user put it, we're all going to starve because if zombies are left to feed off of the brains of who's living, then we are going to just be in famine. Leslie: Yeah, because who wants to eat that? April: Well, there's not much there. Right. It's like, you know, when you get the boiled peanuts and it's like you open up the shell and it's just like a little tiny one and you're so disappointed. Leslie: That's, that is very disappointing. April: It is. And it's going to be like that and not salty. Leslie: It might be salty. I've never been a connoisseur of brains, but apparently on October 4th, we're going to be. We are going to automatically. So we only have like less than a month folks. April: I'm getting kind of a Y2K vibe. here. I don't know if you guys remember the Y2K, but I was working at the credit union during that, and there were people calling to withdraw their money just, you know, like days and hours prior. I remember [00:03:00] that my, it was a big deal, and I remember that my dad went and took the battery out of my car. Because we were making fun of it, but he went and took the battery out of my car or disconnected it or something and so when I, because part of the conspiracy was that no cars would work, um, your bank accounts would be like sapped, like just the world was going to end. And so I went out to my car, like the next day, it was on Y2K and it didn't start, and I'm like, oh my gosh, but my dad was laughing because he had disconnected my battery. Leslie: That would be manufactured outrage. That is manufactured outrage. When you disconnect the battery and then say, guess what, your car is not going to work. Right. I mean, you're, you believe that, you believe, on, for my Y2K experience, I worked at Sam's Club, and on, on New Year's Eve, on 12/ 31 /1999, when we closed down the clubs, our direction Was to take pallets of soda, and [00:04:00] salt rock, and dog food, and the heaviest things that we had in the club, and barricade every fire door. Just in case, and the front doors, just in case there was mass hysteria, and people were rushing into all of the retail environments. And going crazy. So, apparently, pallets of soda would stop you from getting into the Sam's Club. April: What if you guys had a fire and you had to get out? Leslie: Well, there was nobody in the building. April: Oh. I thought y'all were like barricading yourselves in. Leslie: No, no, no, no. It was before we left for the night and closed it down. I see. There was nobody there. So it was just like, and put forklifts in front of things. It was just the oddest thing. April: And so going back to like the manufactured outrage. So the only people that are really, you know, scared are the people who know about this. And so it seems to be via tick tock because we've looked at, you know, [00:05:00] reliable, trusted sources online. There's nothing. And so if you are in the algorithm to see this feed. Then yes, it's going to seem like everyone in the world is freaking out about this. But really, it's a handful of people, and that's the point of manufactured outrage. Leslie: Yeah, I mean, because I wonder, like, what type of person believes this? April: Well, I don't know. Leslie: I mean, who? It's hard for me because there's a couple of conspiracy theory topics out there that do peak my ears because it's like, wait, maybe that really isn't right, right? April: Um, you mean like the Pentagon? Leslie: Yeah, that's a whole nother episode. We cannot get into that. April: We're definitely going to dive into that at some point. Yeah. About a plane hitting the Pentagon. Leslie: That's a whole nother thing. April: But we're gonna, we'll move on from that. Yeah. Leslie: But that's the thing. It's like, if [00:06:00] you, if you find yourself, I mean, I, I'll just speak from my own experience. Like, sometimes I think, am I that person? Like, am I, am I the crazy one that would believe , in something like that? But for me, I am, I like to see proof. I like to see visual evidence. Or if there's visual evidence, it's like, you know, a picture's worth a thousand words. You know, I need to see, I need to see something like that. But what type of person concocts like all these like QAnon conspiracies and like, how the Clintons are in the basement of the pizza place and eating babies and stuff. Like, who makes these things up and then who actually believes them? If you are someone listening and you believe these, I would really like to talk to you. Like, civil conversation, legit. Come in. And let's just talk, because I would like to understand how you're... April: What sold you. Leslie: Yeah, what sold you on that? April: Well, what's another example of like, um... [00:07:00] manufactured outrage that you can think of off the top of your head? Leslie: Well, for me, this one's like, kind of, it's probably going to be very touchy for some people, um, because there's so much talk about it in the media, but I do feel like, the topic of our transgendered citizens of this country,, is a part of manufactured outrage. I think that It's really easy to pick on the little guy and when you can get a majority of people worked up to hate something that is so minimal, it's a really great distraction tool from what is really going on out there. So I did a little research because I wanted to make sure I was, you know, putting real information out there. So, out at UCLA and their law [00:08:00] college or whatever, there's the Williams Institute, and they did a study, um, this past year that was on trans adults in the United States. And this study estimates that you're talking about a population of 0. 5 percent of all U. S. adults, which equals about 1. 3 million people. Um, it's 1. 4 million if you add in the 300, 000 approximate youth between the ages of 13 and 17 who identify as transgender. So you're talking about a very microcosm slice of our, or a micro slice of our whole population. And the thing that really, disturbs me, and disturbs many people, Is that, according to the,, HRC, uh, in 2023. So just in this year, so from January up until. Right now, [00:09:00] September, 566 bills were introduced into 49 states against the trans community. 566 bills. 83 of those bills have passed, 358 are active, and 125 failed. So my question, when it results to manufactured outrage, is why is there such a misuse of time and resources being spent on things that impact so few people when real issues that are out there are not being addressed. April: Right. Because it's, it's for distraction. It's the art of distraction. Leslie: I mean, we're, we're investing all this energy and emotion and passion around one of the smallest marginalized groups. [00:10:00] Because it's easy to attack what's considered weak. It's easy to dogpile on top of a small group. It's easy to, to make something that seems different than what you're used to. It's easy to inject fear into that. Because different means fearful. Different means, oh my god, they're going to come for me. Trust me. I know many gay people. And I know a handful of trans people, and they don't want your kids. They don't even want to be in the same room with your children. Right? So, they're not coming for you. They're not coming for you through a Disney movie. They're not coming for you through a Bud Light can. Like, they're not coming for you. They got their own crap that they're dealing with. And all you're doing is adding to the problem. And it's all this, again, manufactured outrage that just whips everybody up into a frenzy [00:11:00] and unleashes the attack on people who don't have the power to defend themselves. April: Right. And 98 percent of the people creating these laws and backing these laws and paying for, you know, any support for these laws. are most likely never have been in contact with a trans person. Never have spoken to one. Definitely have never been friends with one. So... Leslie: Yeah, and according to Pew Research, uh, in June of 2023, they did, they did a, a research poll to try to understand what people identified as their top issues in this country. Like... What do you feel is the biggest thing that's wrong with this country today? And for Republicans, 77 percent of the people said inflation. So if inflation is your number one priority, then why are you spending 566 [00:12:00] Or however much time it takes to create 566 bills in 49 states against a community that doesn't even impact you in the slightest. If inflation is your number one thing, then why are you investing so much time in something else? Right. Like, it makes me outraged right now just thinking about it. Right. April: Um, speaking of distraction, um, our hot phrase that people love to throw around so much, because they feel like, I feel like it, they think that it makes them cool when they say it. You know, like it's just so strange. It's wokeness and people who are anti woke and people who throw out all the little phrases like, um, What is, what are some of the phrases that they say? Stop woke. Yeah. Or Florida, where woke comes to die. Mm hmm. But, um, if you [00:13:00] don't know, there's an actual definition of woke, and there's an actual origin of where it came from. And it's nothing to do with what we think it is or how we're, how we're throwing it around. The real definition, which is both in the Oxford and Cambridge Dictionaries, is a state of being aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality. Leslie: So, let me interrupt you for a second. So, like you just said a minute ago, in Florida, this is where woke comes to die. hmm. Um, so let's ponder that statement for, for a second. What does that actually mean? So you just read the definition of woke is the state of being aware. So a Florida is the place where awareness goes to die. Like that's, yeah, that's what we're saying. So, if you live in Florida, they, in air quotes, want you [00:14:00] in a state of unawareness. So the definition of unawareness is the state of not knowing or realizing that something is happening, or that something exists opposite awareness. So it really makes sense that that's the catchphrase, because You know, they want you as uneducated as possible of whatever it is that they're working on behind the scenes. April: Right, because their definition of woke is not that. Right. What is their definition of woke? What would you say their definition of woke is? Leslie: Well, anytime anyone's asked, they don't know. April: Right, right. Or they stumble over it. Leslie: Right, so I'm not even going to add to the misinformation because I don't even know what they think woke is. April: Right. I feel like they think that woke means having a priority of social justice, and they don't want that. That's what it seems like, because, [00:15:00] think about it. The people who are woke fight for social justice issues, fight for human rights, fight for equality, fight for your your own decision making as a human and as a family. Like, That seems like they're just against social justice in general. So, to me, that's what they're really trying to say, but that sounds terrible, and so they can't say it. Right. So they stumble over it to figure out, well... I don't actually know. Leslie: Right, woke means, uh, CRT and indoctrinating our children. Right. Right, but they don't know what, or how, or what even CRT is. April: Right, there's no clear explanation Leslie: so where did, where did woke actually come from? How was that term coined or originated? April: So the earliest recorded usage of wokeness that can be interpreted to mean stay aware rather than wake up is in a collection by Jamaican philosopher and Harlem activist leader Marcus Garvey in [00:16:00] 1923 which included the call Wake up Ethiopia, wake up Africa, and a plea for black people across the world to open their eyes to racial subjugation and get involved in politics. So, that's where it originally came from, and we've just kind of adopted it to mean whatever the heck we want it to mean because that's what we do in America. Leslie: Yeah, and this, I believe this information came out of the, the New York Times, but, um, basically in 1938, there was a song, or a spoken word recorded, after that book from Marcus Garvey, um, about the nine black teenagers accused of raping two white women. And he says in this spoken afterword, I advise everybody be a little careful when they go along through there, best stay woke, keep their eyes open. So this term is not a term that white people should be [00:17:00] using. This term was not. Made for us this term was something that April: it doesn't mean trendy. It doesn't mean go with the flow, right? Leslie: It wasn't ever intended to be a Republican right leaning conservative Slogan to you know a place where in Florida just you know two weeks ago a member of or someone who identified as a as a Nazi A white supremacist Nazi went into a Dollar General and killed three black people. And then a week later, you've got groups of Nazis with Nazi flags in Altamont Springs. Standing outside of Disney World, flying their flag, like, in a state where Woke goes to die. That, all of those things should tell you something. So, after Woke, Well, [00:18:00] kind of in the vein of WOKE, I want to talk about beer for a little bit. So, there's two different things with beer. You've got, obviously, the, probably the biggest thing was the whole Bud Light situation, right? With, uh, with the one can that was, was given to, um, Dylan Mulvaney, the, uh, trans influencer. And it... It literally was one can that was made in her likeness. And it was done so that she could actually promote this whole, like, campaign. They were doing a contest and it was this campaign. And so they were, you know, having her do a social media, uh, video about it. And then boy did, uh, people just get their panties in a lot.[00:19:00] Maybe not their panties, maybe their boxers. Mm hmm. Got their boxers in a wad. Their tighty whities? They were pulling out their Bud Light and shooting it up with shotguns and running it over. April: Which, I really didn't understand that because you've already bought it. Right. Like, you already supported. So, you're, you're just throwing your own money away at this point. You might as well just drink it. Right. You don't protest by buying the product to shoot it. That's... That's so dumb. Leslie: Right. Well, also, like, do you actually think that no one else that's different than you consumes these products? Right. Like, I obviously have my beliefs on certain things, and I might like certain types of food or beverages. Am I so naive to think that someone that views opposite things of me does not also enjoy these foods or beverages? Right. I mean, what, do you, where was the outrage, where was that manufactured [00:20:00] outrage coming from? Did you think that if you drank the Bud Light, you were going to turn trans? April: Right, or does it mean that you're supporting something that you don't want to support? Right. Because if we're going to go there, you better get out a really thick notebook with a pen because you've got a long list of other things that you support that you probably don't even know you support. Right things that you probably don't believe in Leslie: because again in our capitalistic society Virtually every company out there has rainbow washed their logo during the month of June. They may not be super supportive of actual LGBTQ inclusivity, but they sure as heck will change their logo over to a rainbow because one of the largest and richest segments of our population is actually... The LGBTQ community, those, those dinks, dual income, no children, like, they got lots of money, right? Dual income, no kids. I've never heard of that. Oh yeah, [00:21:00] look it up, it's a real thing. That's funny. And so, they spend money. The, the, the gay and lesbian community and trans, they spend money, so of course these companies are going to do whatever to ensure that they have the option to get everybody's dollar. Right? It's business. It's business. So, yeah, you, you impacted Bud Light's sales for a little while, but guess what? I just saw a video not too long ago that Kid Rock was drinking a Bud Light again. He was all up in arms with Bud Light. And then he's, Hey! Stopping drinking Bud Light. Of course. It's really ridiculous. And then the latest thing, April: Well, let me ask you a question, though. Sorry, go ahead. Let me ask you a question. Just throw a monkey wrench in there. If Bud Light or, what's something we like? Well, I don't like Bud Light. Well, blue Moon. I don't know. If something, a beverage that we, [00:22:00] or a food that we really enjoy, if there was a Nazi being promoted on it, would you continue to drink that thing? Leslie: Um, I actually am very specific and I try to control where my money is spent. So, for example, Hobby Lobby. They do not get a penny from me. Elon Musk and Starlink or anything else that he... Creates. Will not get a penny from me, even if it was to make my life better in some kind of way. I will not give that man a cent. Chick fil A. I try very hard to not give them any cents. Sometimes it happens, but one of the things that Jen Hatmaker said was, well, if you have to go, and if you really want a chicken sandwich, and that's what you want to do, then double a donation to, like, the Trevor Project, or something like that that supports the LGBTQ community. So, there's some ways around that. [00:23:00] So, yeah. But I wouldn't, you know what I wouldn't do? I wouldn't have manufactured outrage and take whatever that product is that was uplifted by a Nazi and take it into my yard and make a TikTok video of me shooting it or running over it with my car. Right. I wouldn't do that. What are you trying to get out of it? And that's the other thing with the beer is, I just saw Some Ted Cruz video last week where, you know, apparently Biden has this, um, health czar that was looking to update the U. S. recommendations for alcohol and they were looking at Canada's and apparently in Canada, their surgeon general or whatever their equivalent person is called, says that they recommend that the average person doesn't have more than two beers a week. Right? For health purposes. So they were looking at that. Nothing has been done, nothing's been written. But word got out, that Biden was [00:24:00] only going to allow you to have two beers a week. And Ted Cruz and his cronies down in Texas got a little video and had this whole synchronized beer bottle opening thing and chug at the same time and, you know, you're not gonna take this man's beer away. April: Well, I mean, think about it in the logical sense. How can you that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard like you a president's not gonna be able to limit someone's beer intake Leslie: right But that's that's what manufactured outrage is. That's so stupid. The stupidest thing you've ever heard But these people believe it. Like they, it, it gets them riled up. And I don't know if it's if, if it's that again, if you think about social media and whatever rabbit hole you're going down and then you see one video about something that might piss you off and then you see another video about another thing, it might piss you off. And next thing you know, you're pissed off about everything and it's all somebody else's fault. But the [00:25:00] thing is, if you don't take the time to actually investigate, What you're, what you're hearing, to make sure that it's real. I mean, anybody can go out there and say anything, and get you worked up, right? Right. Take the time, do the due diligence, to take a second before you share something, on social media, or before you go and tell somebody else something, make sure it's actually true, you know? Like, I don't know. Next. April: Next. So we've been hearing and well aware of all the book complaints and book banning and, um, just all the chaos surrounding books and schools and education and it turns out, according to the Tampa Bay Times, hundreds of these book complaints in the state of Florida come mostly from two people. Um, Clay County [00:26:00] was the highest with 488 total complaints received And more than 400 of those were received by one man. And then in Escambia, 80 percent of the 221 complaints received by the county came from another one person. Leslie: That's ridiculous. And the, actually, looking at what those two counties, so those two counties make up less than 3 percent of the state's complaints. Total public school population, less than 3%, yet they contributed to virtually all the book bans. So, like, the next highest one was in St. John's with 91 complaints. And then it gets down to, like, 5th or 6th county, you're talking about Like, low double digits, like 19, 13, 12, 6. Palm Beach, 6. April: And [00:27:00] Hillsborough County isn't even on this list. The biggest county that is here, or in the country, I think you said. Leslie: Yeah, I think it's the fourth largest school district in the country. There's none. No, well, it's not listed on this. I mean, there might be one or two, but it's not on this top list here. So, I mean, that's, that again is that manufactured outrage. You've got one person, or two, a handful of people that are out there being the little soldiers of this fascist movement. People have to wake up and understand that it is not these large majority population of people, these things can be overtaken back the other direction. We can make a difference here, because it, when they, when they say one person can't make a difference or you feel like, oh, one person can't make a difference, look what one person did in one county. Those, those decisions for that county or that one person affects our entire state school population. April: Right, and it seems [00:28:00] as though it's like, countrywide. Yeah, it's small groups. Leslie: You've got these, these groups like Moms4Liberty that get, you know, X number of members and their, their job is to create disruption. That's what their job is to do. Their job is to go to these school board meetings or to run for school boards and then go in and push this agenda. And that is not what this country is supposed to be about. I'm sorry, but it's not. That is fascism, and the, the type of agenda that they're trying to push on everybody is not about freedom at all. It's about freedom for some. Right. You know, and that's, that is the key to all of this, so. Right. April: Well, I think that was the last one we had on our list. Leslie: Yeah, I think I'm, I'm outraged enough for today. And hopefully we didn't outrage you. Well, if we outraged you, [00:29:00] hopefully it was in a positive way to actually April: don't be because it's manufactured, Leslie: it's manufactured, but use this, use this energy that you might get from this podcast to again, do your own research, look into this stuff. Don't just go by what somebody tells you on Tik Tok or on Instagram, like take the time to go to reputable. Resources and find out what's going on for real. April: Right, but if you're going to be outraged about something, be outraged about the zombies. And be prepared. Well. And maybe go to Costco and get some food. Leslie: Well, we just, well we're going to turn into zombies. Why do we need food? April: They don't eat regular food? Leslie: I don't think so. April: They only eat people. Leslie: Yeah, and I'm really upset because we just got this podcast started and then, you know, two months in, we're gonna turn into zombies. April: I just bought groceries. Leslie: Well, you have a couple weeks to eat them. Alright. [00:30:00] Alright, until next time, stay safe out there.

Episode 6 April: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to another episode of a Seat for You. In our last episode, we talked about how we reset or recharge when things get overwhelming in life, and then we asked you to share some ways that you all like to reset. And so we have a few that we'd like to share with you before we dive into our next topic. Leslie: All right, so today we're delving deep into one of the most powerful emotions that shape our lives fear. In this episode, we are going to share with you a few of our personal fears that have been weighing on our minds. Some are rational and some irrational, and then we're gonna help each other come up with some practical ways to overcome these fears. We expect you may share in some of these or have others of your own, but hopefully we can encourage you to tackle them with us. So let's dive in. All right, so April, um, Fears. That's a very big topic. , and a [00:01:00] scary topic for many people. April: Well, I think I wanted to talk about it because it just seems like there's just so much of it everywhere, and it made me kind of think of like, what's, what are, what, what am I afraid of? Like, what are my true fears in life? And I don't know, just wanted to talk about. That. 'cause I know that other people probably have maybe some of the same. Leslie: Yeah. I mean, 'cause I think fear just, , it runs so deep in everything. It, runs in, faith and politics , and just your, everyday like livelihood. April: And everybody just, there's just this air of like, people just seem so unhinged lately and it's like, what are, what is everybody just so afraid of? Yeah. You know, like the, just everything. I don't know. Leslie: Yeah. All right. So should we do rock, paper, scissors to see who's gonna [00:02:00] start? Or do you just wanna start? April: You wanna do like one in one? Sure. And then go to the next one? Yeah. All right. You go first. Me? Yeah. All right. So I had to think hard about this, but not at the same time because I really wanted to , be true to really what I feel on to my core. Um, because everybody's got those fears and a lot of times I think we just shove 'em to the back burner and don't really think about 'em or talk about 'em. And so when it's time to bring them up, it, you really have to like dig in there and find them, even though they're with you every single day. But for me, my, my biggest fear is rejection. And I'm sure a lot of people have that fear or maybe they don't give a crap if what people think. But, um, I was kind of raised to think, to, to care about what people think. And so rejection is a big one for me. [00:03:00] Um, I'm, you know, the fear of being rejected by family, by friends, for having like different beliefs. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that one runs deep for me because I've been in that echo chamber for so long. If I share that, I actually believe this about this, that's like, it can cause a chain reaction and it's, it moves faster than the prayer circle. So I guess that fear of what may come back to me, Leslie: well, We, we had mentioned. In, uh, in past episodes about if people change and it like, or realize there's cracks in the foundation, the whole foundation falls or Right, you know, the structure around you fall and, and we talked about how, you know, with our parents, if they start. If they break out of that bubble that they might potentially be in [00:04:00] that they, you know, might lose all their friends or lose their way of life, or, you know, just in the big picture type of thing. So is that what you fear? Do you fear the same thing that they ultimately might fear by change? April: Yeah. Yeah. And I think another thing that kind of goes hand in hand with the rejection is disappointment. And I mean, honestly, it's probably right up there with that rejection. Like just the fear of disappointing people, of disappointing someone, , who has like expectations of me. Mm-hmm. You know, like you're a fear of disappointing your parents or, , Your friends or someone that you've looked up to, you know, fear of disappointment. 'cause that's like, that's paralyzing, you know? And it will cause you to sit still and not move [00:05:00] because you'd rather not have them be disappointed. 'cause disappointment really kind of equals rejection in your mind, and you'd rather just suffer through whatever than. To feel that, 'cause it's like the worst feeling. So Leslie: is this, at least for me, is this in the column of, um, irrational or an irrational fear for you? Um, why'd you have to go April: there? Um, I think it's both, honestly, because it's irrational to think that I'd be like, you know, alone. Even if certain people do kind of be like, Hmm, I can't really align with that. I can't be your friend, whatever, whatever that even looks like. 'cause saying it out loud sounds really stupid now, but, um, I know that no [00:06:00] matter what, that doesn't mean that I'm alone. Right. I'll always have surroundings and I'll always surround myself with people who love me and support me no matter if they. Believe the same things or not, right? So in a sense, it's an irrational fear that a rejection would cause me to crumble. 'cause I know that that wouldn't happen. Leslie: So if we're supposed to also kind of think through and talk through advice on how to face these, You know, it's human nature that we're all really good at giving other people advice, but not really good about taking it, taking it ourselves, or giving ourselves the same great advice that we give other people, right? Mm-hmm. So if you had a, a friend or a family member that was going through whatever the situation is that you have going in your mind, and you are gonna offer them [00:07:00] advice, What kind of advice would you give them? April: Well, I know that keeping secrets is like really hard for, it's really hard on your body, really, truly. So I would want them to be free of that no matter who rejected them. And even if it's like, if it's family, that really does suck. But. At the end of the day, at least you know where you stand and you can move on and heal from that rather than live with the debilitating fear overcoming your body. 'cause that's, that's stress that's not good for you, you know? So that's probably what I would tell somebody. Leslie: So why is that advice that's so hard for you to take for yourself? April: Because it's, 'cause it's [00:08:00] me. 'cause it's my own. Like I, it's 'cause I'm the one having to do the work in there. It's work that I've got to do. And I mean, I guess I'm that kind of person that will put something off and put something off when it comes to confrontation and then there comes a time when. I'm done with it and I can't take it any longer no matter what it is. And then I am, I'm done with it, and I'm gonna deal with it right then. And then it's done. So a lot of times it just takes me being like completely to my wit's end before it happens, before I'll actually do it. Mm-hmm. And that's not healthy either, right? 'cause that means that happens in like, Relationships with something that bothers me. I'll just kind of let it go [00:09:00] and let it go and let it go and let it go. And then suddenly it became too much and then it all comes out and then the other person's like, what just happened? Mm-hmm. So it's like I'm patient, but then until I'm not so. And I can, I will get that way with myself as well. So when I know something needs to be done and I'm acknowledging that it needs to be done, I'll get there. I just need to work on getting there quicker. Right. And actually just, just facing it rather than, than putting it off and anticipating or waiting for the perfect time or, you know, so this is a fear that, you know, you Leslie: can overcome. It's more, it almost sounds like it's more worry. You're worried about the outcomes? April: Well, what's the difference in fear versus worry in this? Leslie: I don't [00:10:00] know. Is there a difference? I don't know. Worry seems like it's something that's continually nagging at you. I would think a fear would be, , you're just scared of. The end result, like the worry is the con, like the worrying is knowing that you're gonna have to get to that fear one. Mm-hmm. One day. 'cause the fear is the end result. Right. But a lot of times we worry and we build up these things in our mind and make it worse, and we make it worse, and we come up with scenarios that never even happened. Right. I mean, we're our own worst enemies when it comes to things like that. Right. I mean, my, one of my fears is, is extremely similar. I mean, it is, it is a form of rejection. Um, which, you know, I'm an Enneagram too. So that is, that generally is what I am constantly [00:11:00] combating. Is anyone rejecting me like I want to be loved. Period or accepted or whatever. But I think it's a little bit different. , like for me right now, it would be the rejection of like not ever even being given a chance. You know, like someone just rejecting you based on how your appearance or what they've heard about you from somebody else, or their assumptions about you like that would be. A situation that would be fearful. 'cause it's, it could, it could happen at any point in time. It's, it's one of those things that, it's not that I worry about it every single day because I don't, you know, I mean, you, for me, like I genuinely. Don't pay attention to most people around me when I'm going through, you know, life and not in a bad way, but just, I, I just don't pay [00:12:00] attention to anything like that. But it would be more about if that day came mm-hmm. And someone immediately like I met, just didn't wanna have anything to do with me, just off of a glance, you know? Right. And as it as who I am, I'd be like, Well, that sucks. Or, yeah. That's sad. Yeah. But sometimes I also have to look at that as, is that the universe protecting me from something? April: Right. Is that someone you'd want to have anything to do with anyway? Leslie: Right. But, some of those people may be people that it's not like I like. I might not have a choice. Mm-hmm. You know, they might be people that I have to deal with. Right. Or they may hold part of your career in their hands. They could be professional people, they could be family, they could be, it could be a variety of situations. It's not a, it's not like a stranger on a street Right. Kind of [00:13:00] scenario. But it's, it's like, you know, making, knowing that you may put other people in. Uncomfortable places just because of your mere existence. Right. You know, that is, I guess, a fear similar. Mm-hmm. But different, a little different than yours. April: So what would be your next one, if that, is that your top one? Leslie: Um, I mean, I don't really have them in any kind of order of weight. You know, like a one, two, or three. Um, , one thing that I've always am fearful or worried about , especially as I get older, is financial security. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm gonna be, you know, reaching retirement at some point in time in the next. Hopefully 15 to 20 years. And you always wonder like, are you gonna make good financial [00:14:00] choices? Are you gonna retire with enough money? Are you gonna be able to do the things that you wanna do? And with the way that the world is going right now, , , there's always just so much uncertainty in the air. And, , being someone who is. An entrepreneur mainly, and then also has, you know, other streams of income or revenue. I mean, you kind of are self-reliant on that. Not that, I mean, I guess everyone's technically self-reliant on their employer 'cause they have to go to a job or whatever. Whether it's them employing their selves or somebody else, I employing them. Right. But, um, you know, it's a different kind of pressure. Mm-hmm. When you're responsible. For yourself and others. Right. Um, and so that's like, it's, I think finances have, have always most of my life been something that [00:15:00] will keep you up at night sometimes, but it always works out. So it, to me, I think this, if I had to put it in a column, You know, it would, it would be more like, it'd be like 70 30 in the irrational column because yes, everybody should plan for financial security as, you know, moving forward as you get older. Um, but you know, in my experience, it always seems to work out. Right? So is it real or is it irrational? You know? April: Yeah. I mean, it can, it can be both. I mean, That's one of, that's definitely on my list too. Um, just making enough money to even have something to put aside to retire because, um, up until this point I've made sacrifices in order to like be, I don't know, I'm getting emotional right now. This [00:16:00] is stupid. Well, just. I made sacrifices that allowed me to be present for my kids, and I've been like emotional in this and I don't even know why. Leslie: I think it's probably because of the kids. I think you get emotional when, when it, the kids get pulled into it. You made that choice. It wasn't like it. It was a sad choice for you. Right. But maybe the reason that the emotions are coming out is because maybe you feel like there was a part of you that didn't get to do something that you know, that part of you may have wanted to do. April: Yeah. I mean, I don't know because I know that if I had gone for the career, That I would [00:17:00] look back on this time and be like, yeah, I have 25 years of a career under my belt, but what did I miss as a, you know what I mean? There's no way I'd trade that. Right. And I feel completely lucky, blessed, honored, whatever to have been able to do that. It's coming to a point where they're getting, you know, older and I, I will have a different income. And so now it's where I'm feeling like, okay, not that I'm not mom still, but now I'm gonna have to like kind of start over in some kind of career. Leslie: Like a new identity. April: Yeah. Or like, you know, I'm having to start from scratch kind of somewhere, even though, I mean I'm doing, I'm doing this and I've done this and done this for a long time. But then I'm like, man, there's people my age that have been their careers for 25 years already, or 20 years, you know? And it's like I'm starting [00:18:00] from scratch. Mm-hmm. Not starting from scratch, but, 'cause I have a lot of skills and I have a lot of experience under my belt, but it's like I'm having to build that career now, you know? Mm-hmm. So, I'm just now being able to start over a 4 0 1 k or a retirement account because, you know, in the past, because of, you know, circumstance, that's not been something I've been able to do. Leslie: Well, that's definitely something that I'm sure many people listening to this can relate to. You know, we're the bulk of the people. You know, in this country, live paycheck to paycheck. Right. You know, and, and the idea of, of savings or retirement is just, you know Right. A farfetched thing. Yeah. But, you know, it sounds like maybe there's fear around what that new identity is [00:19:00] gonna look like after your kids get older and go off and have their own families. April: Right. And I know that I'll adapt probably pretty quickly, but. I also like, I know, I remember what it's like to, to struggle and have to choose between gas or groceries one week, and I don't wanna go there again. And not that I ever would, that's probably like an irrational fear, right? Because I mean, I make decent money, you know, like, but it's always that like in the back of your head, like, 'cause anything can happen to anybody. You know, half the homeless people on the street, it happened so easily. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. But anyway. What's your number? Two or three? Wherever, what number are we [00:20:00] on? Leslie: Oh, I don't know. Are we supposed to help you get over that? Or you just wanna let that one? April: Well, I'm just sharing with you the fear of, you know, not being able to make enough to retire comfortably or, you know, make ends meet or be able to help my kids if they need something later. Right. Well, I think Leslie: we dug into some things there that are a sensitive area, so maybe on future episodes we can dig in a little deeper there. Dive back into that. Yeah. Um, I would say I have this like, you know, if, if you don't know us, we're based in Florida and it's pretty tough to live in Florida right now and, , You know, so well, depending who you are, it's tough. Yeah. I guess depending on who you are. But, , for me, I have this fear [00:21:00] of like, will I ever find a place to live that's a welcoming community that you don't have to. , fear that when you walk down the street, you're gonna get looked at or someone might feel entitled enough to come up to you and confront you on something or April: Right. Or one of these unhinged psychopaths, pull gun, you know? Right. 'cause that's, it sounds like a crazy fear, but it's actually not crazy anymore. Leslie: Right. I mean, we live in a state now that you. It's constitutional carry. You don't even have to take a a, a class or get a permit to carry a gun around. And, um, you know, with as much hate and division and and such in this country, and you know, we were watching some video on Instagram where people were [00:22:00] getting angry at a basketball game, like they were getting kicked out of a basketball game because they're just so angry. Yeah. There's just so much rage. In the air and, , , I don't even know if a place like that exists. Yeah. You know, whether, even if it, even if it's, , everybody you know is like, oh, I'll just leave this country. It's like, really? Because we're, we're outside of this country . , is a safe space. And in a, I mean, I'm sure there's a few, but like, Could you even afford to live there? Like is there work for you are coming from America? Will they even give you the paperwork to allow you to accept them? Will they accept you into their borders? Like, yeah, I mean that's one of those things, it's like, do you just, um, alter your lifestyle, alter how you live wherever you're living. That might be uncomfortable. Just try to live the best life that you can. 'cause that doesn't seem fair. Right. You know, or keep your nose [00:23:00] down. Yeah. I do think that is a rational fear. If anyone has suggestions on a quality place to live in this country that's affordable. Hit me up. April: Yeah. Um, another one for me is, um, that my kids will be hurt for things that they believe because. , my kids definitely, I mean, they're educated and they are well-informed of things and they have massive hearts and wanna be allies for anyone in a, an oppressed community. And they have lots of friends like that, and I don't want them to be targeted or hurt for being an ally. , like what we've seen this past week, someone just is an ally and they're killed just for being an ally and it, that's just ridiculous. Or them [00:24:00] being, , victims of a shooting at their school because guns are just easy to get and school shootings are common. So I think that's probably a fear every parent has is their kids, you know, being part of a crime or getting hurt at school and them not being able to do anything about it or help or prevent that. Um, so. Leslie: So we've gotta offer some kind of solutions because this is gonna be a really depressing episode. , April: right. Well, and I, we can work backwards if you want. Like, so for that one, I know that all I can do is prepare them as best as possible. Mm-hmm. Um, all we can do is prepare our kids for, for what we know is out there and, um, Yeah, that's it. And they, so they, I mean, they can prepare and they, and that they expect that people will not be kind. [00:25:00] And so, I don't know, you know? Leslie: Yeah. I guess it's like be the kindness, right? It's hard mm-hmm. To have consistency with that. Right. Especially with, you just feel like every day you're, you get beat down with something else, but. You know that, that's kind of the same thing with, you know, finding a place, a welcoming place to live, and what do you do until that happens? I mean, no, you can't, you make your own surroundings where you would like to live, right? , I guess it's one of those things that, you know, I, do believe that your life is planned out. You, . We're kind of like in a play and the script's written, and I, I think there might be some things that you can do along the way and it might alter your, your, the direction of, you know, your path. But I think ultimately when it's your time to go, you're gonna go no matter, like you see that like with people that will [00:26:00] smoke. A pack of cigarettes or two packs of cigarettes a day and live to like 110. Right. But then, you know, somebody that's 21 might die from lung cancer. Right. Who's never smoked, ever. Right. It's like, yeah. Those are those things that you just don't know. Right. So you can't, I guess just the advice I need to tell myself is you just have to go out there and do your thing. Mm-hmm. And if somebody else is made uncomfortable by that, But that's really their problem. It's not your problem. Right. And if something comes of it, then you, it's my due diligence is to be prepared to mitigate anything that might come my way. Try to diffuse the situation, right. That might come my way. April: And obviously, avoid situations that, you know, would put you in harm intentionally. Right? Like, you're not gonna go to like a, an anti. Uh, L G B T convention. Right, right. Leslie: But sometimes you end up in those places like [00:27:00] unknowingly. Right? Like, like the other night when we were, were out here in, in Denver. Mm-hmm. Um, at, at a conference and we went to a, a restaurant restaurant. And we were having a good old time at, you know, we were with a another colleague of, of mine and we were talking and, and just having a great meal and a great time and laughing and then all of a sudden we, we looked up and literally every table was all men. And it was all like a certain kind of man. Right. You know, and, and I think there was like one or maybe two other women. Sitting at tables and there were women working there. Mm-hmm. And no, we weren't like at a strip club. I just wanna make sure Right. Preface that it wasn't a gentleman's club. It was, it was a normal restaurant. Literally a steakhouse. It was a steakhouse. So, you know, but it was, it was the oddest experience I'd ever had. Like I look around and Right, and it was like no matter the [00:28:00] size of the table, it was full of men. Yeah. I don't know, you know, not to stereotype or judge, but. I even asked the waitress, are we in a safe space right now? Like, and she was like, sometimes I wonder that myself. You know? So those are the situations where you just never know. I knew at that point in time when I, when I was, became aware of my surroundings, I was much more alert. Mm-hmm. I was, because prior to that, when we first got to the restaurant, We were just talking and then we were engaged in conversation and just really having a good time, you know, and that's where my attention was. But as soon as I became aware that I was literally surrounded by, I don't know, 150 dudes, yeah, maybe it was like, no Women Wednesday, and we just didn't know. Maybe, I don't know. But, , I definitely wanted to get out of there as soon as, as quickly as, as, uh, we could. So, Anyway. April: But yeah, being prepared. Um, [00:29:00] as far as my kids are concerned, as long as they leave the house and I know that they're prepared for what comes their way, then I can mitigate irrational fears. Um, as far as like, you know, financially tackling that at, Leslie: I think that's all about planning too. Mm-hmm. I mean, really a lot of these fears. Or any kind of fear can be, um, supported by a goal. Right. And, and, and I mean, if you just sit around and don't take any action to achieve anything, then you're, you will probably fail. Mm-hmm. Right. You will probably. Have to make tough choices. April: This is saying you, you fail a hundred percent of the times that you don't try. Right. And so, you know, for you, you obviously are gonna have a career in front of you. It's scary [00:30:00] because that's not a role that you've really had to play in a long time. Right. You know, I think probably for you, and this is completely just my opinion, I think the sadness comes from. The loss of that Leslie: routine because you really enjoy that routine. Yeah. You enjoy, you know, going to the kids' soccer games or doing the things. Mm-hmm. And as the kids get older, I think. Most moms probably go through those feelings that you're going through. Although, although people like Jen Hatmaker that we follow mm-hmm. You know, she's super happy. The kids got outta the house. Right. Um, yeah, because that's like, now it's her time. Now it's her time to get to like, live the way I, I wanna get, she wants to live to feeling that way. Well, we're gonna see her eventually, right? Mm-hmm. So maybe we can ask her. How to do, how to make that happen. That could be the one question that we can, we can ask her. But I think for the financial stuff, and this is, you know, I'm [00:31:00] answering my own questions, it's, it's all about planning and making smart choices and, you know, study like one tip that I always heard was when you got your paycheck was to always pay yourself first. And that was putting a specific amount of money into savings. And And you do that religiously. And yes, that comes from a very privileged stance because some people don't have enough to put in in savings. They don't have enough to put in savings, and they need to borrow or put on charge cards to even make it to the next paycheck. Right? But if you do have the ability to even put a little bit into savings, then do that because there's also some people that will go shopping at Target. You know, and spend, you know, right. Like when they get their paycheck and all of a sudden they've blown, oh, I don't have any savings. Right. Two or $300 on frivolous things. Right. And I'm, I can say that [00:32:00] because I also target, have, target is difficult. Done that, so I'm just as guilty of spending money on frivolous things. You know, I, I know I could be way, way better with my money. So maybe the fear really is that I know I'm not doing good enough. So like Right. I, I scare myself because I know I could be doing better. Right. But you just like, you don't wanna, I don't wanna, because I like, I like having fun and I like doing things. And what if you die tomorrow? Right. Who cares about the money you have in savings? You know, like, right. Live today, but if I don't die tomorrow. Right. And if you live another 60 years, that then there's gonna be a problem. Right. I will be living on the street, right, with my target purchases. All right. So we would love to know what irrational or rational fears you have. , send us, send us a [00:33:00] note, send us an audio file. , drop us a comment on our website and we can tackle them together. Yeah, we would love to, , work with you on something like that. So, Until next time. See you.

April: [00:00:00] So last week we left you with a question, slash prompt, and that question was, what can we do to reset and reframe so that we are not overflowing and overwhelmed with information and so that we can live our lives, uh, joyfully and happily and productively. So Leslie, what, what do you do to reset? Leslie: Well, it's, it's, I think, more of a challenge sometimes for me because of the type of work that I do. Being in a digital space and having that as a career, , it's not like I can just completely take a break from the phone. , you know, or because I have responsibilities that I have to, to look at, but one thing [00:01:00] that I can do is, take control the volume of, , content that I'm taking in. So if I'm, if there's certain things that are happening, , that are. Uh, just devastating or like, like what's going on right now in Maui. Like, it's a horrific, heartbreaking situation that you're like, you're helpless. You know? And I could sit there and watch video after video, after video of all the devastation and stories. But what is that really doing for me besides, you know, or them, or them make, besides making me miserable. So it's like sometimes I have to practice, um, self-control. That's kind of like one of my words for, for the year is self-control and just putting it down or setting limits to the time that I spend on certain apps. [00:02:00] Because it can just, it can be. You can get sucked in so easily and the next thing you know, like hours have gone by and you're just still sitting in the same place doing the scroll. You know? But sometimes like when you and I are, are sitting around and, and you get on a, a feed of cat videos like. April: That's fun. Right? Those are refreshing. That's cats and babies. Leslie: They're, they're fun to scroll through and see the little cats act in a fool or, or singing, you know, or dogs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and like that's, that's also a way, even though you're on a digital device or you're taking in content, April: it's a way to regain hope for humanity, right? Leslie: Yeah. April: Because, because people are funny. Leslie: Yeah. You could easily, based on how algorithms work, Get pulled down a black hole of all kinds of things, and which is, you know why I think there is [00:03:00] so much division in this country? Because if the algorithm knows what you wanna see, it's gonna give it to you, right? And, and, You're just gonna keep getting more and more of it, and you're gonna believe that everybody feels the same way as you do, because I, I mean, look at all these people out here that are feeling the same way. No, that's not reality. Mm-hmm. It's not, it's your reality because that's what the algorithm is giving you, but it's not real world reality. And so you have to remind yourself of that sometimes and again, look at different. People to follow or kind of go to, people that you like really like and trust and see who they're following and follow some of those people so that you can just get a different type of content that comes in there that might give you a break of seeing like the same stuff, you know, over and over again. [00:04:00] Um, so that's like one thing that. How about you? April: Well, I am, I am in that digital space too, creating content for people, um, and designing things. However, I'm not as, chained. I don't wanna use the word chained to it, but I don't have the same res level of responsibilities that you have. So I do have the ability to, when I, when I leave the office, I can absolutely choose to not get back on it, but for the most part, I am on it. And for me, it's a matter of watching those kinds of videos or putting the phone down. When it's not 400 degrees outside. I love sitting outside and, uh, reading a book of some kind. I love to dive into my Alex l book, How We Heal. And that's a book that's like, it's made for that. It's not made to, and she'll tell you this, it's not made for you to just blow through in one sitting or, rush through to get it done. [00:05:00] It's one where you work through it and process and then come back to it. So I really like to do things like that or just kind of get, get in touch with nature in some way. I know we like to ride down to the beach sometimes for dinner and just catch a sunset. That's, mm-hmm. Those are really good ways to reset for me. Leslie: Yeah. As a Gemini, you know, that's, I, I think I'm an air sign or I don't know. I have no idea. Or a water sign. I'm one of the two. And, and, but when you are one of those types of signs being in nature, really kind of mm-hmm. Having your feet touching the ground with no shoes on, you know, whether you go to a park or, you know, like when it's nice out, you sit by a stream. And read a book, or have a little picnic. I mean, I know those things kind of sound hokey, but that's really, that's to me is joy. I love that. Yeah. That's joy. It's like living in the present moment and just no [00:06:00] responsibility sitting there in nature and just being a part of the ecosystem. Yeah. You know, April: I haven't gone in a long time, but I love to canoe or kayak or, um, You know, anything or even tubing where you can just, you're forced to kind of not be connected to anything, but you just absorb what's around you and appreciate what's around you and what we still do have in life. Leslie: Yeah. 'cause I mean, I think we talked a lot about like all the troubling things that are happening in the world, right? But, There still is a lot of good things happening in the world. And that's, that black hole I was talking about is you could get sucked in and thinking that it's, it's all doom and gloom, but you know, there, there are some positives out there and there are good things happening and there are things that you can do to, let yourself feel better. For me, I'm a helper. [00:07:00] So anytime I can do something for someone else that provides me a spark of joy, like Right. I enjoy doing that. Right. Like, April: well, going back to the Maui thing, last night you were like, what can we do? How much money can we send? Like what can we do to help? So I think that's also a really great way to kind of take some of the overwhelm off of you because you feel like you need to be doing something. And we all should be doing something, but we're not all able in the same capacity. But we can send money. That's one thing we can do. We can't all just hop on a plane and go help. That's kind of the last thing they need right now. Right. Um, but they need resources. Leslie: That'd be the worst thing to do. April: Yeah. They need resources and so, and anything else that we see going on, find ways that we can at, in some capacity, help in that. That also takes some of that overwhelming, I'm not ever gonna be able to, Help with anything. I'm, it's too big. I can't make a difference. [00:08:00] So, but, but putting forth effort in little ways does make a difference because if everybody does a little, you know, we can, we can change the world that way. So we don't have to carry everything that we hear on our shoulders like it's ours to fix. And that's my issue. My daughter does the same thing. We carry all of it like, Like what we do is gonna be the change. No, it's, it's everybody putting forth some effort and learning and moving as a unit together to make change in little things. Little ways, I mean, there's websites galore on how you can get involved in the community or. If you have, you know, extra money to throw away or to give, you know that you would love to donate to a cause. There's some right down the road from you that could really use support and resources or your time or, you know, there's ways to reset in a way that's paying it forward. Leslie: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. I also really like gratitude lists. Mm-hmm. Um, to me that's. That's helpful. It's a great reminder to get into a routine to where, you know, when you wake up in the morning or before you go to bed at night and kind of running through that list of the things that you're grateful for, because it reminds you, it, it's another reminder that not everything is horrible, in this world. That there actually are plenty of things to be grateful for. , and that that helps you kind of look inward. Because I mean, I think with anybody going through a reset or, trying to, to start fresh or I don't know, a clean slate or something, you know, you have to kind of start with a lowest, uh, the lowest barrier of entry would be yourself, right? Like look inward and see what are ways that you can help yourself do certain things, like what do you need [00:10:00] to, is it meditation? Would that be something that's helpful or yoga or meeting up with a friend that you haven't met with, like actually in person, going and grabbing a tea or a drink or whatever your preference is. But like, you know, those are the types of things that build relationship and help you in community. Which I think kind of feeds your soul. Mm-hmm. Which would help you also reset, right? April: Yeah. I was also thinking when we were talking about the, the cat, the funny cat videos and baby videos that, those are always super funny and I've thought about. Like those people that make them, I wonder what their, you know, political views are. Where do they, you know what I mean? Like, would I actually like this person? So I think the answer to what we were talking about in the last podcast as far as having conversations with people, but we're too afraid to be in the same space as them, or we don't, we, we just don't want to, we're, we're repelled by [00:11:00] them because of the things that they say. These could be the same people posting these funny videos that we find hilarious. So I think we have to, we have to connect on different levels first before we can even get into those other conversations. So I think we have to find commonality in the lighter things. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? You think you have to connect in, in ways that are just regular everyday humanity ways before you can dive into the systems that you both have. You know? Right. So I think that's a key to being able to have those conversations is forget those things. 'cause you need to find where you can connect. Everybody's connected in some way. We all would have something in common with even the furthest person from our corner. And I think finding that, or wanting to find that is gonna [00:12:00] be the key to getting further. And both sides growing. You can't dive in at the point of stress. You've gotta find a different way in. Leslie: Yeah. That's, that's a struggle. That's hard. Yeah, because I, I don't think it's possible that anyone that would make such a funny cat video would be so hateful to people. April: They might, Leslie: I guess it's possible. I mean, yeah. I don't know. It's, I mean, I know, just hearing that it, it makes me uncomfortable on the inside. April: Why? Leslie: Well, but it just shows me that, like, it shows you where work needs to be done. Like, 'cause it's not comfortable, right? So that feeling of, of having to engage in conversation with somebody or build a relationship with somebody on a lighter note. Yeah. [00:13:00] And then you're like, you're jiving and you're having a great time, and then you find out, oh my God, they have a, they're a complete opposite spectrum of you right now. What? I mean my, April: but now you'd be more comfortable to like, well, what, what about that is appealing for you? Like, why, why do you believe in this way? And they can ask you the same question because now you've got a foundation. Yeah. You know, you go back to that story I told in the last one about me just writing a stupid letter to that girl with stupid clobber passage, you know, whatever scriptures I had no foundation built with her. You know what I mean? And so I had, I, I had barely a foundation built with her and I threw that in and that ....done. You know what I mean? There's no conversation after that. It's. It's gotta start somewhere else. Leslie: Right. No, I, I agree. I [00:14:00] think, I think for me, the hardest part is, you know, you're like, oh, this person's cool, and Oh yeah, we have, we have some things in common. And then you find out what they believe in and you're like, How, and April: it's against your very humanity, right? Leslie: It's against my existence as an individual. So how do you carry on a relationship after that? Like, April: well, I'm not saying you have to carry on a full, on relationship, but maybe, maybe you find a way within conversation because it maybe that conversation's never been had with that person. And. You get to talking and maybe just, maybe it makes them question how they came to that conclusion. Yeah. And then it maybe softens their hearts a little bit and they can, maybe now they have a face to fit with what [00:15:00] they are doing. You know what I mean? Now they have a face and a connection. 'cause I can guarantee you that most of the people that make these laws that. Have to do with people's rights. They don't have a personal face to connect it with in their lives. Leslie: Yeah. I mean some of them do. April: Some of them do, but they, you know, Leslie: some, some of the people making laws have have sons or daughters that are April: Right. But they're never gonna be able to have a relationship with. Leslie: Right. And that, I guess, I guess there's two different kind of paths there because you also have people you already have an existing relationship with, and then you find out new information about their beliefs. Right. And you're like, You actually, April: how can you love me? And think like this. Leslie: Yeah. You actually have had a relationship that you thought was one way and this new information presents itself and it's like, it just doesn't compute. It's like, how can you say that or believe that? And then still, like, I think [00:16:00] I even said that in the other episode is like, you come to the family function and oh, it's, you know, I still love you. Like it's not about you. It's just about them and it's like, wait, I am them. Right? So, or you know, you support somebody that is literally trying to make me a, a third class citizen and not have any kind of rights, right. And how do you justify that? How can you look me in the face when we're at these things? But that's, I'm not gonna get back on that soapbox. So I'm saying you have, you have two situations. You have people that you're maybe just beginning to know or you stumble upon, like let's say at a conference or one of your friend's, friends that you., meet at a party or something like that, and you start talking about, something that's, maybe it's football or women's soccer, or you find something that you root for the same team, or [00:17:00] you're like, yeah, and then you walk outside and they have, a F** Joe Biden sticker on the back of their four by four and, and a American flag sticker that's black and white with the thin blue line. And you're like, okay, now I know what I'm dealing with. April: Jesus carrying a rifle, Leslie: Jesus in his gun. Mm-hmm. I mean, because that's Jesus. So then you're like, Ugh, how do I even. How do I like say, say it is a friend of a friend, right? That's kind of coming into your friend it's not like you see this person on a regular basis, but you know that you're going to be seeing this person more than once or twice a year. Like, okay, let's just make up that scenario. And how, how do you even have conversations with this person knowing? That they believe something so much that they put a sticker on the back of their car or they hang a [00:18:00] flag on the front of their house. I don't have any stickers on the back of my car. I don't hang flags off of my house. Like, and it is, again, I'm not, I don't wanna come across as it sounding judgy that if you do, you know, because it's fine if you do, but like you're laughing at me 'cause it's fine. It's totally fine. It's totally fine if you wanna. Hang something off, but like how? How now do I navigate those waters? April: Well, I think it has to come back to what we expect from the other side. We have to expect from ourselves too. I think we have to have empathy for the other side as much as you don't want to. They come from their own lens and their own context, and they don't know what they don't know. You know what I mean? So I think you have to approach it in a way that, okay, well they. They've reached this conclusion for a reason. I would like to know what that reason is, but it's not always personal, even though it's personal. [00:19:00] And I think like with some of the things you're talking about, like with family, you know, how are they supposed to, how, how can you say you love me while you also support this? I think they have a certain context and they don't think of it having anything to do with you. They vote that way for maybe other reasons, but the, the downfall or, you know, the chain reaction of that is that if you vote for this person for this reason, know that this also comes with that. Right? And they're not thinking of that. They're thinking of the things that they are for, not of the things that they should really be against, but that's what comes with the territory. It comes with the package, you know, and they're not thinking about that. So I think you have to just, you're not gonna want to hear it, but we have to have grace for those people as well. If we expect them to have grace with us, we have [00:20:00] to also have grace with them. Otherwise, we're fighting the fight that we're trying to stop. We're just doing it in our own way. Leslie: Yeah, I don't like that answer. Right. I don't either, but that's just is what it is because I, I, it's, April: this is me seeing both sides of things. Leslie: Right. It's hard for me 'cause I don't, like it is personal. Right. So how do you, like, I guess I have to learn how to take, take that out of the equation. But how do you take, because it's, it's not like, let's go back to football. And back when I was younger, I really rooted for the Gators University of Florida Gators, and there'd be people at school that rooted for F S U and I. Ugh. Like I can't even be in the same room with you, right. , And just not even gonna, or Alabama fans or Tennessee. Ugh, any, [00:21:00] okay. So anyway, I guess I still have a little bit of that in me a April: little bit. Leslie: However, if you did stumble upon someone who you found out went to the University of Alabama and, but you had a good conversation, like, okay, that's nice, like, We have a little bit of friendly rivalry, like we can banter back and forth about the teams or whatever. Kinda like Bryce with Pittsburgh Steelers, like, I can't stand Pittsburgh for personal reasons. You know, he loves Pittsburgh. The Bucks play Pittsburgh. Occasionally one team might win. I it's just, it is what it is, what it is. I guess not anything. I'm not gonna hold that against him and hopefully he wouldn't hold that against me, that we root for a different team. Right. April: Well, I hope not. 'cause that's super petty. Leslie: Exactly. But when it comes to like someone who chooses to participate in [00:22:00] activities that actually take people's rights away, and you're one of those people that's not, A friendly rivalry over a football game that is, you're coming after me like you are telling me you're better than I am because you deserve to have the rights you want, but I don't How, how can you sit across a table and have friendly conversations with people that feel that way. Like how do you even approach that conversation to, to get them to think that it does personally impact me? April: Yeah. Well, I think that you would just, you have to tell them. Leslie: Yeah. And I, I feel like that's something people are [00:23:00] scared of because they don't like confrontation. And it's not politically correct to talk about, politics or religion or certain conversations or just like taboo conversations to have. Yeah. Um, I guess they could just have a podcast. April: They could Leslie: then, they could share their own, right. Because this is our podcast, April: the most passive aggressive way possible, Leslie: and they get to say what we wanna say. April: Right, Leslie: right. April: So back to our main topic. What else do you do to reset? Leslie: Did I get offset there? April: Nah. Leslie: Um, I try to journal. I'm not the greatest at it. Because I think for me, like sometimes I would just rather disconnect and like find a TV show that I wanna watch. April: Yeah. I love to watch murder [00:24:00] mysteries. Yeah. That relaxes me and I don't really know why. Maybe that makes me a serial killer. But, um, if you haven't watched Truth Be Told on Apple tv, it's fantastic. And I'm upset that they decided that a fourth season was not going to be, On par with what their vision was. I feel like that's a really dumb reason to not continue. But it's really great and , it brings me joy. Leslie: Yeah. I think brings more joy than journaling. So, yeah, I think those are some, you know, some things that. You know, the getting outside the, disconnecting, trying to meditate, maybe reading like April: right. I really love to make a cup of tea with my book. And just kind of go somewhere where I can be a little bit alone. If you have kids, that's sometimes a challenge, but, sometimes you can, you can find some time, even if it's just like [00:25:00] 30 minutes to just kind of get away. Because outside's not always an option, especially right now. Yeah. But, and breathing, like breathe. Leslie: I think we forget to breathe. April: Yeah. Or going to get a massage, but that's kind of an expensive way to reset. Leslie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just I, sitting in your chair at work and closing your eyes for one minute and taking deep breaths could help you reset honestly. Yeah. 'cause you, you know, loosen your jaw, relax your shoulders. You know, you don't realize how tense you are all the time mm-hmm. Throughout the day. And it's like those little things, it brings awareness, to the present moment. And if you have awareness of the present moment and you're focused on that, it doesn't allow you to have anxiety about the future or the past. April: Right. Yeah. , I saw as I was. Scrolling this morning. Posted an article about how the suicide rate this [00:26:00] past, I think it was in 2022 or 2021. I don't remember what one of these past couple years. The, uh, suicide rate is at a record high, and I think it whatever year that was in that one year, it was upwards of about 50,000 people in the US by itself. And it's not a coincidence that all this is. It's just all very heavy. So I think it's just super important to not just reset, but find people to talk to, you know, get into therapy if you need it. Um, it can be scary if you've never been, or if you've been conditioned to think that it's not for you or it's for crazy people. I assure you it's not. It's actually really super helpful and it teaches you how to navigate your own way through things even after you've talked to them. Um, so yeah, Leslie: again, focusing on yourself I think is a [00:27:00] great way to make the world a better place. Starting with yourself. Yep. Because the more work you put on yourself, then the more help that you'll be able to give others. April: Right. You know, like putting on your mask in the plane, they tell you to put your oxygen on first before attempting to help anybody else. Right. So we gotta put our oxygen on. Leslie: Yes. April: We would like you guys to share what ways you like to reset, um, when things get overwhelming in your world. So if you could email those in. Leslie: You'll be able to go to a seat for you, the number four, the letter u.com, and fill out a contact form and you can share with us either via text or you can actually upload an audio file if you would like to. And maybe you'll hear yourself on the podcast. April: Yeah. Leslie: All right.

April: [00:00:00] And I mean like our voices. You normally test our voices. Leslie: Is that the volume you're gonna speak at? April: I would say probably, yeah. Okay. Leslie: Do you think you're gonna like get passionate and yell at all? April: Do I normally, Leslie: sometimes you are a nine. You could get angry like a Hulk. April: Probably not while recording a podcast. Leslie: Let's go. April: Okay. So today we would like to discuss why we're just trying to have nice time despite knowing facts and information. That doesn't sound right, not why. Leslie: We're gonna discuss how we're living our lives and trying to have a nice time. Right. In spite of knowing facts and information. And information. Correct. 'cause it's quite challenging. It's tough 'cause you're just, you're just going along [00:01:00] and then one day new information plops in your lap and just, well, it's not even like one day, it's like all day. So, I mean, your day could start off great, and then by 10:00 AM you've had an influx of news and information and you're overwhelmed before you even arrive at your job. Yeah. And it's just becoming like difficult to just enjoy things that should be enjoyed in life, to find joy in life. Yeah. So gimme an example of something. Is there some recent example that you've had that this happened to you? Well, I mean, I feel like it's constant, but it really comes from just constant information flooding into our brains. And it's, for me, my, my social media feed and stuff like that, it's, it's got a balance, I guess you can say, [00:02:00] but not balance, like in a good way, balance in, I see things from both sides and it's, it can be super angering, how people treat people and how they speak to other people. And sometimes I feel like for me, I feel like I've just lost my mind because I'm in this, I'm like a tiny speck in this sea of duplicity. You know, those, um, there's like a picture of like a thousand black dots, but there's like one red one. Mm-hmm. Or one different colored one. That's what I feel like living where I live and not, well, I'm surrounded by people who believe differently than I do about a lot of things. Yeah. And I used to blend right in with all of that. But in the last, you know, several years I've moved [00:03:00] and grown past. I don't wanna say past, like it's, you know, a race, but it's, I've grown beyond my boxed thoughts, I guess you can say. And so now I just feel like I'm nuts and trying to have that conversation with people that I, you know, care about and have always had conversations with. Do you think it's because, like, do you think people fear change or have a hard time with change because they don't like, they don't actively want to learn. They're perfectly like safe in their space. They're comfortable with people around them. There really is nothing that is urging them or pushing them to think of something. Yeah, because why would they've got, I mean, they're, they're not, they're not losing anything, you know, and you've got one side that's afraid of [00:04:00] losing rights, and then the other side is afraid of losing the control of those rights. And so it's hard to talk sense to people who just love the control. It's hard to. Find empathy in them for the people who have lost a good part of their life or, you know, things that are very, very different in their every day. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it, it really starts with how people are raised, you know, like your whole life experience and you know, you and I both being white, we come from a place of privilege in many aspects and. You know, growing up in certain spaces, it's just automatically assumed that you follow your parents' lead or you do what they do and, and the indoctrination happens when you're a child, right? Mm-hmm. With your parents, um, for whatever, [00:05:00] whatever it is. It could be anything. It doesn't have to be religious, it doesn't have to be, it could be how you. Like your macaroni and cheese. I mean, you're raised to like something a certain way and, and typically you follow through with that. Right? And so as you go through elementary school and middle school, high school, a lot of our parents really kinda stopped at that high school level. I mean, some of them maybe took some college or went to college, but you know, I think back then the teachings were different than they are now. And again, if you're in a safe space, You're not really gonna challenge yourself to learn anything new or read anything that's outside of that. April: Right? There was no one challenging that information back then. You know? And now there is people challenging information at every corner. You've got, high school kids challenging the system, you know, especially here in Florida. Where there's certain things that are trying to be taught that are, you know, incorrect [00:06:00] and not part of our real American history. And you've got kids, they're not dumb and they're gonna push back and that wasn't a thing. They didn't, our parents and that generation did not push back because they had no reason to. They had no other source of information telling them otherwise. Yeah, I mean, I guess with technology in our generation, You know, having access to computers and, um, it's a blessing and a curse because we know, we know too much now, so that the phrase, you know, ignorance is bliss. It truly is because you don't have to worry about anything. Yeah. You know, I guess it's bliss depending on who you are, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because as long as you're, you know, I guarantee you a white person came up with that phrase. Yeah. Leslie: It's much easier and comfortable. If you're not being oppressed. Right. So, yeah. And that's one of those things, like, that has definitely never been a thought of [00:07:00] mine when I was in my twenties and thirties and forties. Like, I didn't think about privilege that I had growing up, you know? Yeah. I, I would never think, I would never have thought to say, or now, like the first thing that comes to my mind when we're talking about something is, Wow, that comes from a place of privilege. Like the fact that we even can say that comes from a place of privilege or anything that you see on the news or you see all these, you know, on, on social media with all these Karen videos and ken videos of white people acting a fool in a Burger King, you know, because they didn't get their soda when they felt they should have gotten their soda, and just like the sense of entitlement that you see. I guarantee you, if I would've watched something like that, you know, 20 years ago, I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it. Mm-hmm. Because I wasn't, I wasn't educated or I, I didn't allow myself to, [00:08:00] to have vulnerability and see like how I was part of the problem. Right. Or what I was. Just enjoying unconsciously, right? That unconscious bias of Oh, just, yeah. You know, until something comes along that now impacts you or now challenges you. Right. And now, now you open up the floodgates of learning, right. Because you're forced to. And I think that's why the people that, are in oppressed communities are really the people that we should be learning from. You know, everybody needs to listen to people in oppressed communities, not just the lgbtq plus community or the black community. It's like any community, homeless people, like anybody that's oppressed, I feel like we have a lot to learn from those people specifically because they have the gift of being able to learn and wanting to learn. Whereas someone who has [00:09:00] already got everything handed to them on a, nice white platter. They have no reason to learn anything else, and so they're not gonna dig. Mm-hmm. So how does, how does like religion in the church fit into all of this? Because, again, I'm a newbie to, being a Jesus follower if that's, I've always considered myself, you know, more on the spiritual side of things, but to look at Christianity as a whole and, and the Bible and, the rhetoric that's within that space. Um, you know, it's supposedly all about love. You know, Jesus's love and sermon on the mountain, how to treat your neighbor and love your neighbor and, and do all the things. But there, it, it seems to me that there's so much hate that comes out of that space. For anything that doesn't look or [00:10:00] sound like them. And it's that whole, uh, speck in the eye when you have a log in yours kind of thing, like the judgment. I just, I guess my biggest question around all of this is how is, how is there so much justification for judgment of others when that's exactly what the Bible tells you not to do? Like, How is that kind of allowed in this space? April: Well, you've got people who learned the Bible a very specific way, and it's justified because they are under the impression or under the, what's the word? I don't wanna say brainwash, but I guess it's that too, that the Bible is the only knowledge that you need to take in. And then that's it. You, that is our only form of, instruction. [00:11:00] And if it says it, then it's justified. And so if they come across as hateful, they say, well, that's because God's love is different than our love. And God's love is, a holy love. So if they're trying to say that I'm loving you in a holy way by trying to instruct you, that is how they say that they are loving. Whereas to me, that doesn't make any sense. Because if God's love is different than our love, then why were we created to feel love in certain ways? If I don't feel loved, then you're not showing me love, period. Right. You know what I mean? Right. And so some of that just doesn't add up and it's not, you know, obviously it's not across the board. But it's a strong majority. And so if, if the Bible is their only source of instruction or how to interact with people, then that's a [00:12:00] problem. And I can probably be called a heretic for saying that. But you, you have to interact with people and, and talk to people and get to know people and learn so that you can grow. There's no growth if you're not spreading outside your walls. Even Jesus, when he was walking through different towns, getting to know people, the whole reason there are Jews and Gentiles is because he got to know them. You know, like the whole reason that the Gentiles were invited into the church and the Jews hated that because they weren't following the same rules and they weren't doing things right is because Jesus got to know them, and it's not about that. So he literally changed their minds. On how to interact with people that didn't function like them. Leslie: Yeah. Well, do you think like the, the influx of new information coming at you all the time, um, again, [00:13:00] because you chose to have new information, like you chose to diversify the feed, so to speak, like Right, follow new people. Yeah. Get new information because, I mean, probably four or five years ago you were getting a steady stream of one side of one type of information, right? And that making that choice of allowing new information into the mix is what allows growth and change, right? Mm-hmm. So I wonder, you know, April: but it also invites anger and confusion and, you know, so many questions as to how something has gone on for so long, or how they don't see it. You know, so while it's great, it's also like, it's unnerving, you know? You mean like, um, how people that are in a cult don't know they're in a cult? Right? Right. It's, or how, like, you know, with this whole [00:14:00] Alabama, uh, boat case thing, you know, I see a lot of is what it is, like exactly how it happened, and then. You've got the other ones trying to like combat it and you know, trying to justify those guys approaching that man. You know what I mean? Like Oh really. So I've got both and it's just like, this is like so disgusting. I'm just so grossed out by so much of what I see. So, yeah. So how does someone that's in your position absorb all that information? I mean, do you feel like it's healthy to, um, To allow those kind of like conversations to happen with, without any kind of pushback from others? Or do you feel like it's just, it just becomes a toxic place of a Facebook argument when someone Yeah, it's toxic challenges because you've got so many people with such hard lines on things. You can't have a conversation with someone who [00:15:00] is a brick wall. Nothing's gonna get through. And that's what everybody seems to be on both sides. Everybody's a brick wall and there's no conversation happening. It's only this is, this is my side, this is the truth, and then it's, this is my side, this is the truth. Mm-hmm. And so there's no conversation. So really it's just toxic. Yeah. It really is. Well, I mean that's why we wanted to do this podcast is so that we could have conversations with people that, you know, might think differently or, haven't had an opportunity to be in a space for their voice to be heard. Um, you know, every, because everybody has a voice. It's just if they have a space to, or safety, yeah, safety in the space to, to communicate. But, um, because I, it just, it's, it's baffling to me and sometimes I just, you know, I don't, I don't see, I don't have those two thought patterns coming into the content that I've chosen. I did many years ago, [00:16:00] probably, probably two or three years ago, I had, people that would comment or, or post certain things and. I would just be like, wow, you know, I mean obviously as someone who is a part of the L G B T Q community and then to have people that know you and claim to be your friend or you know, or even a family member post things without a thought that, how this might land on somebody else. It just, that to me shows a lack of empathy or caring, like it's really all about yourself. Like it's self preservation, you know, and you will, you will cut somebody's neck if it means saving your life, right? Like that's, and that's an extreme thing to say, but that's really what it is. I mean, you will present yourself to the public in one way, so [00:17:00] you can have some kind of ego or, or this, this bravado to uphold. Right. But if you're at a family function, are we cool? Everything? Oh, you know, I love you. Like mm-hmm. It's, it's not like you're, it's, it's different. No, it's not different. It's the same freaking thing. Like who, who, it's not different. You sound like an owl just then. Yeah. Well, that's me getting passion. Also. I am going crossey looking at you because there's this pointy foam wall behind you. The um, soundproof. Gray stuff, and it's like one of those, you know, one of those art things where you have to like, kind of cross your eyes to see the image pop out. That's what it looks like right now. And I'm trying to look at you, but I feel one of my eyes is like, drifting. Well, don't look at me. I'm looking weird. Leslie: Don't look at me then getting a little bit dizzy anyway, so I just, that's, that's the stuff to me. It's like, how do you engage in positive conversations with people? I [00:18:00] want to understand. Like, I truly want to understand, where, why they have the feelings that they have. Like what is, what is the fear that they have? And where is the justification in that fear, when you are being so hateful or judgy to somebody else, like, I am more on the side of, like, you do, you and I, I believe I've even said that before. Like you do, you boo like if you want to be a racist, if you want to, uh, flourish in the patriarchy of this society, if you wanna uphold capitalistic principles and focus on accumulating as much as possible without any type of thought to, to this earth and the destruction that you're doing if [00:19:00] you wanna do those things right, I guess that's fine. Right? Where I have a problem with it is when you take your principles and the way you want to live and you want to enforce that onto me, you know, obviously we have to have some kind of laws in this society to, maintain some kind of resemblance of like structure, but, where, where does the line happen? But all I see is people just trying to enforce their way of life on, others. Again, it can be looked at on both sides of the coin. Mm-hmm. Right? But the thing is, it's personal choice. It's, it's like that, that meme that goes around that says, if you don't, if you're against gay weddings, don't say yes if a gay person asks you to marry them. Right, right. Like if [00:20:00] you are against abortion, don't have to, don't have an abortion. Right. I mean, if you're against women's rights, then I guess go live in a patriarchal commune or something. I, I don't know, like do that, but don't tell me, right, that I can't get married. Your convictions are your convictions, or I can't have an abortion, or I can't, you know, vote. Uh, you know what I mean? Like, I can't mail in my vote, or , I can't go drop it off at like, just don't tell me what I can or cannot do. When, you're a hypocrite because that's exactly what you are trying, that's to the basis of every single argument that's out there right now, which is causing so much division. But the hypocrisy of it all is just astounding, especially when they use the Bible to base their [00:21:00] argument from, because again, as little Jesus newbie over here, everything I've learned so far about what's in the Bible and even Romans, which is used as a battery ram to destroy the lives of people and has surely caused death for many people, is not about that stuff at all. Like, again, hypocrisy of everything that's happening. So I guess that's my biggest rant, and I'll get off my soapbox now. April: No, I feel you. And I see it like more clearly all the time. People just put it on display. They put their ignorance and their privilege and their hypocrisy just out for everybody to see, and they don't even realize it. Yeah. And it's just, I'm becoming more and more sickened by it. And I wish I had become sickened by it a long time ago, but better late than never, I guess. But it's, I don't know. It's a lot. [00:22:00] It's a lot to take in. And it's hard to have conversations like really in person because it seems like everybody's just so scared of each other. You know what I mean? Like we don't even want to talk to people about things because it's gonna get heated and you know you're gonna get upset and you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's just so much fear surrounding everything, and for, especially for a certain group of people that preach to not have any fear, they're the most fearful of everyone. And I don't know if it's because if they, take one pebble off the stack, they're afraid the whole thing is gonna come down, you know, or one question will cause them to question everything. Well, and it, I mean, you said, said that, And it will, it absolutely will. So, but the difference is, I, I know, I know that my faith is intact. You know what I mean? It's not a, you know, the de, the deconstruction word's a bad word, [00:23:00] of course, but it's not deconstructing to tear it apart and walk away. It is deconstructing so you can learn. It's like taking apart a camera or it something, you know, to see how it works. And then you can put it together and you can have more respect for what you're operating with. And so it's more like that. I'm taking it apart so that I can see where did this come from? Why do we believe this should be done like this? Is this tradition or is this in the Bible? Did Jesus say to do this? Or did we just make this up and we're upholding nostalgia? Like what is the difference here? And unfortunately, I've come to realize and learn that so much of the practices that we have within specific church, organizations are tradition and are nostalgia and they're respected for those reasons and not necessarily for biblical ones. And so we hold those up. We hold the rules higher than we [00:24:00] hold our two greatest commandments. And that sounds a whole lot like the people we were told not to be like if you're actually reading the Bible, it sounds a whole lot like how the Romans did things, and it sounds a whole lot like we should not be doing this this way, right? Something is deeply wrong and it takes stepping out just honestly just a little bit. It doesn't take much to see it, but if you're airtight in your circle, you're not gonna see it. But the moment you step foot out just a little bit, you will start to see it and you will question, and it's okay. You need to question everything. You should be questioning everything that you learn, everything that you have grown up with. Because when you learn something as a child, just like learning to walk, learning to eat, you do it without even thinking. It's like breathing, [00:25:00] you know? And so you should question, how did I, how did this happen? Where did this begin? And then you start thinking about all the conversations you've had. Or I think about the one time in college where I met this girl who was gay in one of my college classes, and you know, obviously I've got my own issues sitting there and I felt the need to share with her all those verses, like a whole page of like the clobber passages. And I think back and I'm like, Oh my. Why did I do that? Hmm. How could I possibly have done that? Like, like how did you do that? Like how, how, like how I, I literally hand wrote it on a paper because we were becoming friends and I really liked her. She was in the military. She was just fun to talk to and we started becoming friends. And so as someone who was raised, the evangelical, your purpose in life [00:26:00] is, To share Jesus with everybody you come in contact with, like everybody. And so when you care about somebody, you want to make sure that they end up in heaven too, so and so you share, you know what I mean? And so my fear was that she was gonna die and go to hell and I had all the verses. I written 'em down for her and I never saw her again. She never came back to class. Wow. And I don't know if it's because, 'cause she had talked about, um, possibly having to get stationed somewhere and having to leave the school. Mm-hmm. Um, prior to that. So it could have been that, it also could have been my stupid, disgusting letter. Wow. And I think about it all the time. I don't even remember what her name was. And it just, it's really like gross because I think back now, like there's just so many people like that. I had no apprehension to do that. I [00:27:00] had no regret doing that. I think I did think to myself, well, hopefully I didn't scare her off, but then I got in my Integra and drove home. You know, I had no other thoughts of it until, you know, the last few years where I'm like, what did I do? So Leslie: did you like just hand her this piece of paper and leave or did y'all have a conversation about it? We were having a conversation and I just, I remember I told her, um, I was thinking about some things and I just wanted to share some things with you. And so I handed her the piece of paper. It was just like after class we got in our cars and drove off and that was it. Never saw her again. So my thoughts like, okay, did she go to the military? God, I hope it was that. I hope that she didn't go home and, you know, end it. Because those are the types of things that do that. Wow. 'cause there was no context. There was no, I didn't get to know her enough. And so many people go straight to what they see is the issue. They wanna be doctor and they wanna go straight to what is the obvious [00:28:00] thing. And you know, put the arrow straight in the bullseye there instead of taking the time to get to know somebody as a human being. You know? And had I done that, it would've been beneficial for both of us. Because I had far more issues than she did. Hmm. I've never heard that story. Yeah, you heard it here first, folks. April: So on that note, I think that's a Finally got that off my chest. Oh, Leslie: it's funny. Um, April: it's not funny. Leslie: Well, no, it's not funny, but April: it's terrible. Leslie: It's nice that you, I mean this is like, like a form of therapy. April: It is. Leslie: Because I'm sure you're not, we've listened to podcasts where the person has kind of come clean about something or been vulnerable about experience that they had. Right? And how they, what they, what they regretted about it. And that's one of those things that's like, where maybe a healing piece of that [00:29:00] could be, you know, you journaling a letter to this person, you don't remember their name, but like, just kind of walking through that scenario and the errors to your ways of Right. How you could handle that situation better. April: And speaking of therapy, the way you treat people and the way that you talk to people are, if they're harsh or whatever, it's your own fears projecting out onto somebody else. And so those were my own fears. I am part of that community and it was my own fears, , the things that were being pegged at me left and right, not necessarily a person, but in, in the context of my life at that point. Those were the passages and my own fears were coming out on her. Like, if I can't be this, then neither can she. Leslie: Right? April: And so that's how that was projecting out. And I, I have told you about our, one of our really good friends growing up that did go to church with us and how we were like thick as thieves and a few of us were, and I won't [00:30:00] say her name just in case she ever listens, but, um, she came out I think around middle school and her, I think her dad probably gave her the hardest time about it. And so I don't really know what went on at home for her, but she stopped coming around church because I know that she knew that we would not be allowed to hang out with her. Or spend time if everybody knew. And so I think she probably was protecting herself and us by just not coming anymore. And we, we were great friends. But the problem is that we kind of knew this, but didn't reach out. We didn't continue that close relationship. We didn't chase after her after that, you know, we were kind of under the assumption, oh, she's hanging out with the quote unquote wrong crowd. And going down a bad path, you know, things like that. So we just out of our own fear did not [00:31:00] pursue. Mm-hmm. And I still talk to her every once in a while, but our relationship was gone, you know, after that, at least in, in the capacity that it was. And so that's sad. 'cause I mean, we pushed her, I think there were more issues that went on with like drug use and things like that, and, That need to to numb almost absolutely came from the church and her home life, you know, at that point, Leslie: right April: which her home life was because of the pressure that the church would've put on her parents, you know, that type of thing. And so it's just sucks when you have hindsight 'cause it's so clear sometimes, and you can't undo it. Leslie: No, you can't undo it, but you can acknowledge it, which you're doing and, try to help others. April: Yeah. Leslie: You know, I mean, that's, that's part of it. But we wanted to do something [00:32:00] a little bit different in this episode . We go to a watermark church and even though we might not get to go in person every week, we always listen to the podcast or watch on YouTube or, or whatever. And, we're going through, uh, Romans right now, which is, you know, those clobber passages like you were talking about, that are used a lot. And in one of the sermons, Tommy, the pastor was, was Talking about the main one, right? Was what is the Romans? What's the main clobber passage? April: Oh, it's in Romans one, like the back half of Romans one. Leslie: Okay, so back half. Romans one, I'm still not, like, I don't, I haven't memorized all them. Numbers and things yet. So we're gonna play an excerpt. April: You mean like two Corinthians, Leslie: right? Book of two Corinthians. Yeah. That wasn't me, by the way. April: Oh, that's great. Um, that was our, one of our former leaders of the free world. Leslie: Right? Such a religious man. Anyways, um, [00:33:00] so let's play that clip now and then we'll talk about it for a moment. Yes. Pastor Tommy-AUDIO: Um, and so like you're all here. And so when I read the book of Romans, I see the weight of it. I see the importance of it because in a way we've all been trained by our ideologies and we've been primed to fight about things. And the gospel directly affects all of this and, and contradicts and pushes back against all of this. It has been my desire from the very beginning for 20 years now to create a space for all Christians to wrestle with what it means to follow Jesus in our place, in our time. Um, that has always been my desire. And here's what I know. People change their mind. I change my mind. You change your mind. I've got another, I've got another maybe 40 years on this planet. If I don't, they always say if I don't get hit by a bus, I don't know why buses are such a big threat. I've got another 40 years and. [00:34:00] I'm probably gonna change my mind. Two, three diff different times. I've changed my mind. Innumerably, as I look back, those of you who aren't changing, your mind aren't reading, you're not wrestling, you're not paying attention. Leslie: So you're not reading, you're not growing. April: You're not paying attention. Leslie: You're not paying attention. April: Yeah. And I think that if you think that you have nothing to learn, if we think we have nothing to learn from each other, then our growth is done. Period. Leslie: Absolutely. April: And so we have to pay attention and the only way to pay attention is to actually pay attention. Step outside your box just for a few minutes and get to know some people that you wouldn't normally get to know. Leslie: And actually have empathy for others. April: Right. Well, that [00:35:00] doesn't come naturally for some people. It has to be brought to them in a personal way for that to even occur. Mm-hmm. People, there's people who don't naturally have empathy. Probably a lot of people don't have just natural empathy for putting themselves in someone else's shoes and feeling the pain that they could feel. As a nine. I do that well, which is why I'm so tired all the time. That's why I need naps. Leslie: Well, I also think it's interesting that because you are Enneagram nine and you always can see both sides of the story, April: it's exhausting Leslie: that you, but you. You have a choice. April: Do I,? Leslie: You have a choice to eliminate one of those sides from like your newsfeed, like Oh yeah. From my April: newsfeed, yes. Leslie: You know what I mean? Like, like you have a choice of what comes in there, but I think it's your natural tendency to where you need to [00:36:00] see both sides. April: Well, uh, I mean, how are we supposed to diversify our feed and have, you know, other people at the table who don't think about us unless we have those types of sources. Leslie: Yeah. I guess for me it's, it's controlling how much of those sources come in there, because again, like you said, you're, it's exhausting. Mm-hmm. It's mentally taxing and mentally exhausting, and I think for some people it's confusing and so then they're just constantly in this state of flight or fight. April: Right. So they're just like, screw it. Leslie: Yeah. And, and it, it's just, it's not healthy. You know? Right. And so I think you can, you can find ways to understand what's going on in places that are different places that you would typically be in, versus welcoming a steady stream of that information into your world, like Right. I don't, I just, April: I can also just not look at my phone. [00:37:00] Right. I think that's, that's the key message, learning for the day. Just stay off your phone people just, yeah, just stay off your phone. Give, give yourself some, some air Walk outside. Well, maybe not walk outside. If you live in Florida, just it's, you might die if you walk outside. Leslie: You could take a nice walk and listen to this podcast. April: Yeah. At night. Leslie: At night when it's cooler. All right, well, let's wrap this episode up today and, um, again, if you would like to, well, April: we had a, we had like a, a question. Leslie: Okay. April: It was how can we reframe and reset when we, when the info bucket is overflowing and overwhelming so that we can enjoy life? Leslie: So is this a question we want people to answer about or just think We can April: just think about it. I mean, we can throw out some ideas. Leslie: So maybe like in our next episode, we can answer this question. April: Yeah. But you'd be stewing on it for a little bit.[00:38:00] Put a pin in that Leslie: dork.

Leslie: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Leslie and I'm April. No need to find a chair because we have a seat for you. In this podcast, April: you get to eavesdrop on conversations that span a variety of topics. From difficult to Leslie: vulnerable and lighthearted to funny. We hope to have something for everyone to enjoy. So grab your seat and let's go. April: He, he, he, the tables have turned and I get to be the one asking the questions. So, Leslie, first question, where did you grow up and how would you describe your family? Leslie: Hmm. Well, I too was born in Tampa and I too grew up in a rural area, uh, that I just called the country. I know you [00:01:00] named it Dover. it was really more like Thonotosassa plant city area. April: Thonotosassa?!!. Leslie: Yeah. Um, but I was April: funny when the G p s tries to say it. Leslie: Yeah, yeah. Doesn't do a good job. So I was an only child, uh, parents divorced when I was five years old., I stayed with my mom after that divorce. My dad got remarried and, his new wife and kids, they weren't necessarily super fond of me, so I, I wasn't really around that. and my dad moved on with his life, but his parents stepped in for him. Uh, they helped my mom with child support. I stayed at their house a lot during the week. My grandmother was a school teacher, so, they enrolled me in the same elementary school that she taught at so that they could help get me to school and get me home. You know, so we also traveled a lot. She worked at, my mom worked overnights when I was in elementary school, so I would stay over at their house and, [00:02:00] and all of that. So it was, it was definitely a good relationship with them. I, I feel like I had a really strong family though, on both sides. Lots of great aunts and uncles, both sets of grandparents were around for a while. All very supportive and loving. But I, I definitely recognized that, you know, I had privilege growing up because a lot of people don't have all that family support around them. Especially, kids, you know, from divorced homes. You know, they, they may only have their parent, or a neighbor that helps take care of things. So I had a lot, a lot of people around me that provided, uh, love. One cool thing was I got to travel a lot with my grandparents on my dad's side. Definitely benefited from having one side of the family that was kind of well off and one side of the family that was more working class. But I also saw how that made me spoiled as a kid. Um, you know, I definitely came from that privilege and I thought [00:03:00] that I was better than others. 'cause when you're in certain environments, you really soak in the treatment that you're getting and you don't even know it. It's like the fish and water. I mean, I was at tables with governors of island nations and CEOs. April: That is ridiculous. Leslie: CEOs of like large corporations. At a very early age, but these people to me were just like Uncle Herb. You know, April: uncle Herb? Leslie: Herb. Yeah. He founded Checkers. April: Oh, is that all? Leslie: Yeah. But, uh, you know, most of the time I would always find my way to wherever the house staff was at. If it was a big party, they, April: the house staff? Leslie: Yeah. In these like big mansions April: I have questions. Leslie: They, uh, there would be staff. And, you know, at these big fancy parties, you know, there would be bartenders, there'd be waitresses, there'd be kitchen staff, there'd be greeters or whatever at the front door. But I, as a kid, and I was probably, you know, this is probably [00:04:00] 10 to 12. April: Mm-hmm. Leslie: 10 to 13. I would, I would always find my way to hang out with the staff. So that's where I was, that's the most comfortable. April: Yeah. That's cool. So aside from hanging out with the kitchen staff, what other activities would you say you were into or interested in or wanted to do as a kid? Leslie: Well, April: other than traveling the globe, Leslie: That was pretty fun activity. I got to do that in the summers. April: Mm-hmm. Leslie: But I wasn't really involved in organized activities growing up. I think that was because of the fact that I had to bounce around from house to house. You know, I would, my mom's schedule working overnights, you know, she would drop me off at my grandparents' house at, I don't know, eight o'clock. Uh, bathed and, in my PJ's and ready to go to bed, and then I would sleep there and get up that morning, go to [00:05:00] school, come back there, and then, you know, play with my friends over there in that neighborhood for, uh, maybe an hour until my mom came and picked me up after she had slept in the morning. And then I'd go home with her and she'd cook dinner and make sure my homework was done and all that kind of stuff. And then I'd. Take a bath and get in my pajamas and go back to my grandparents' house. So it was that back and forth kind of thing. So there really wasn't any time for organized activities or, anything like that. So, and also there weren't many options for girls sports at that point in time either, April: right Leslie: nothing like there is today. April: Didn't you ride horses? Leslie: Yeah. I, I guess I, I did that for a short period of time. That was something that my grandparents really wanted to do. You know, obviously the well off grandparents, April: right. Leslie: Uh, horse jumping was kind of a April: Yeah, that's a prestigious sport. Leslie: Prestige. Yeah. Uh, so they thought, April: I did not know any horse [00:06:00] jumpers when I was growing up. Leslie: Right. They thought a little chubby kid would be good in tight pants on a horse. But I gave it a shot. It didn't, it didn't last for any long. April: Didn't take? Leslie: No, I loved football and I love soccer. Um, but there were definitely no girls playing football. There wasn't flag football. There wasn't any of those kinds of things back then. Um, and I, I don't know if there was any girls' soccer leagues even back then, honestly. April: Right. Leslie: So, but when I came home, uh, to my grandparents' house after school, I had friends in that neighborhood. Holly and Shirley, they lived down the street. They were sisters. And they were really good volleyball players. I mean, they both went to college on scholarships. Like Holly went to University of Georgia. , April: wow. Leslie: Yeah, she was really good. And so when they would come home from their practice, they would always meet up with me and we would play more volleyball in the street. We'd always like have these games with imaginary nets. And, um, I really enjoyed that. That was probably the [00:07:00] closest I got to any kind of legit organized activity. And I enjoyed doing that with them. April: So, with all of your culture that you have behind you, what is it that you do now? And what's your favorite thing about what you do now? Leslie: Well, I think of myself, uh, in the business of helping organizations create an environment to thrive. I don't really like to say that I'm in any specific kind of, Industry. But I, I just love helping, I love helping people grow into new skill sets that they may not have had before. You know, growing people, seeing people that maybe come into organizations in an entry-level position and then become managers of that same organization that I really enjoy. And I also, Love working with teams to come up with solutions to opportunities that they may have. So [00:08:00] I'm really more in that growth mindset space. I love challenges in that, kind of role going into organizations that might struggle with change and figuring out how I can help them, um, you know, be a change maker in that space. So all of those things right now are focused around, uh, content, similar to, you know, your. You and I work together in, in, in some ways. or I guess not some ways. Some, sometimes during the week we work together on projects, and, and we focus on audience. Uh, we focus on strategic initiatives. So I do that really in. Both the private and non-profit sectors. April: So I heard you say that you like to help organizations identify where change is needed and [00:09:00] all of that. What would you say your biggest challenge there is? Leslie: Probably dealing with, you know, different generations. I think, what do we have five different generations in the workforce right now? April: Mm-hmm. Leslie: And they all have different levels of comfort when it comes to everything from learning new things to technology to. You know, getting their cell phone to work. I mean, it lots of, lots of different things. And so, um, you've got some people that are, you know, probably coming to the end of their careers and it's, you know, they're, they know that over the next year or two, they're gonna be phasing out to retirement. You've got people that are kind of in the middle there and they've, they've grown up with technology and they're comfortable with it, but they know they're moving into the the time where they only have X number of years left and what are they gonna decide to do? [00:10:00] You've got these young, you know, gen Z and millennials out there that are taking over and dominating the workspace, but they haven't been raised either in the same kind of way that, you know, the older generations have. They, they may have different, communications skills, April: they value different things, and within the work ethic. Leslie: Yeah. And they, they just don't communicate the same way. And, but there's, that's not saying that they communicate badly, it's, they just, it's different. So. April: Right. Leslie: You have to, I feel like I'm kind of in the middle of all of that and so it's, it's challenging to continually navigate going back and forth, and making sure that the communication is happening effectively in that every different type of generation is receiving it in the same way. April: Right. But you're a great bridge for that. Leslie: Yeah. April: Yeah. So unfortunately you're a great bridge for that. Leslie: I'm a bridge. April: You are a bridge. Leslie: That's my job. Yeah. That's my new title. April: So what would you say the biggest lesson you've learned in the last two [00:11:00] years would be? Leslie: Hmm. In the past two years, it would have to be, Focusing on the things that I can control. Uh, and it's, it's something I still have to work on every day. As I'm getting older, I realize that maybe things that I thought deserve my energy really don't, you know, in the grand scheme of things. So I definitely have to protect my peace as I, as I get older. So I would say specifically over the last, last two years, Through the pandemic and and such, that would be maintaining my peace or controlling, trying to protect my peace would be the biggest lesson that I've learned. April: Yeah. And so what does that look like? What does protecting your peace look like? Leslie: Um, in a tangible way? You know, it, it really comes down to boundaries, honestly. And I know that's kind of cliche 'cause that's kind of a buzzword that goes around these days, [00:12:00] but you know, You have to, when you look at the things that you can control, you can't control actions of others. You can only control how you react to those things. Right? Right. So, um, setting boundaries of who, who you allow to plug into you, because we only have so much energy and everyone else is, is either providing energy or taking energy. And so you have to, you have to know the balance of how many of those people that, of each, that you could have in your life. April: Right. What would you say your biggest lessons would be in the last decade? Leslie: Well, that's, you know, a lot's definitely happened in the last 10 years. I mean, as I mentioned, you know, we went through a global pandemic, so that was, April: I can't believe that was three years ago. Leslie: Yeah, that was fun. Good times. So much personally has happened in my life professionally. You know, my, my professional life [00:13:00] has, has changed. I, I bought, you know, my business, geez, six years ago now. So, but I would say when, when it feels like things are pulling you backwards or maybe you, you just don't think that they're working out the exact way you want them to work out in that moment. If you could just close your eyes and visualize a bow and arrow and that arrow is being pulled back, it has to be pulled back to get to where it is going. Right. And it's taken me many, many years of steps back and launching forward, uh, to see that I always seem to end up right where I'm supposed to be. So I think that's been a huge lesson for me is to try not to put so much weight in something that is deemed bad, you know, because it really may not be [00:14:00] bad. It may be exactly what you need to have happen to get you to better. April: Right. That's a good point. So with all of this wisdom that you've acquired over the last decade and all that you've been through, If you could go back to one moment in time in your middle school life to little 12 or 13 year old Leslie wearing overalls or whatever it was you liked to wear, what would you say, what kind of advice would you give her? Leslie: Um, as I mentioned in your interview, I still think it's weird to pop up my old self into the middle school. 'cause I would just freak myself out. And thinking about what I was wearing. I think that was the day of stirrup pants. And April: did you wear stirrups, Leslie: outback red shirts with all the buttons down the front and you would wear [00:15:00] multiple shirts and roll them so that they April: I do not recall this trend. Leslie: Yeah. 'cause I'm older than you, but, um, and scrunchies. April: Yes. Leslie: Yeah. And the, and the socks that scrunched down around the stirrup pants. April: Oh yeah. They were made to bubble. Leslie: Yeah. With Keds. Yeah, with kids. Yeah. White kids. April: I do remember that. Leslie: Yeah. This was during that time. April: So overall, this was with the one with one strap? With the one side Leslie: down? Yeah. That was more like ninth grade for me. So I had a weird middle school timeline. Um, my elementary school went until sixth grade. April: Okay. Leslie: Then you went to a seventh grade center. So it was only seventh grade. April: Yeah. Leslie: And then I had to go to a school that, well, that seventh grade center was outside of the school area that I went to elementary school. So no one that I went to elementary school transitioned over to the seventh grade center because I was special district to go to the school my grandmother taught at. Oh. And so when it went back to time for me to go to [00:16:00] right seventh grade Center, it was my mom's address. Different neighborhood. April: So you didn't know anybody? Leslie: Didn't know anybody. Mm-hmm. So starting fresh at a seventh grade center. Then I had to go to a school that that was supposed to be eighth and ninth grade, that was junior high. In Hillsburg County at the time. And I don't think any of my friends from the seventh Grade Center mm-hmm. Went to that school either. So I had to start eighth grade. Basically fresh. Start again. Yeah. Brand new. April: That's hard. Leslie: Yeah. And then my mom got remarried and moved us to a whole nother county where they start high school at ninth grade. April: Right. Leslie: So for three years in a row, I started a school that I knew no one at. And I didn't realize that until I was thinking about how to answer this question. Yeah. So that was probably a pretty traumatic time for me. April: Right. But it probably taught you some [00:17:00] skills. Leslie: Yeah. I guess. So. Thinking about that now, I never really fit in, you know, as a kid, I wasn't a popular kid. I wasn't at that point in time in middle school. Like I wasn't an athlete. I didn't have a, a club, you know, I didn't have a clique. To kind of fit in. So, you know, I'm sure that was because I didn't, I mean, I knew who I was at that age, and I didn't really see anybody else around me that I. I felt identified the same as me and so, or that would have acceptance around me as a kid. So, it taught me to have a really tough exterior and I didn't let people get close to me until probably my 10th grade year when I started playing sports. Uh, in high school because I developed, you know, really close bonds with my teammates, because that was the first time I felt like someone else may be like me. April: Mm-hmm.[00:18:00] Leslie: It was more genuine relationships at that point in time. So I guess my advice to my middle school self would be to just have fun and just do what you wanna do. Uh, be yourself, dress how you want. But really, I mean, who am I kidding? Like, I would have gotten laughed out of the room if I was trying to tell my little self to just be, have fun. Like, that's just stupid. Right? Because I wouldn't listen to myself. Right. So I, I guess then I would just say hunker down and carry on. 'cause things are gonna turn out just fine. April: Yeah. Kind of the same as mine. Just keep going. Just keep going. Just keep going. It's gonna get better. Well, that's good advice that we are both gonna give ourselves these days. What is it that you enjoy doing in your free time? Like on your days off, you work a lot, but when you aren't working, because I, you also enjoy working when you're not doing that. If your laptop is not in front of you and you have no access to it, [00:19:00] what do you love to do the most? Leslie: I think that really depends on my mood because you're right, I don't really look at my work as work. I'm one of those people 'cause I do enjoy what I do. But I really enjoy deeper conversations, which I think is one reason that sparked this podcast for us. Surface level stuff gets really old for me. Uh, so when we go to a park or the beach and get out in nature with one of our books. Sometimes we read the same book and we talk about it as we read it. Um, and snacks and just April: always snacks. Leslie: And yeah, I, we love snacks and just read and talk. That's a really enjoyable day. But if it's like a rainy day off and, or I'm not in a talkative mood, I would love to just have a house full of snacks and bevvies and plush blankets and a couch and a big TV and lots of shows. Maybe little naps with my [00:20:00] person, April: emphasis on the big tv. 'cause you really like large screens. Leslie: I mean, I'm older so I have to wear readers, so the big screen helps, right? But that, that would be a pretty darn good day, in my opinion's. A good day. April: I agree with that said, what do you wish to get from this podcast and what is, what does beginning all of this mean for you? Leslie: I want this to accomplish a few things, really, two things. The first one would be relatability. I know it does wonders for me to listen or watch something and be able to see myself in it, you know, like I mentioned in, in middle school, in elementary school. I didn't really see representation. So now in this part of my life, listening or watching something else that I can put myself in to that role is helpful for me. So if this just provides [00:21:00] even one person with that, then I would count that as as a win for us. And the second thing is, is probably the dialogue. Uh, I hope we are able, you know, to talk to people in this podcast that have a variety of opinions. I hope we can have, uh, those conversations in a constructive and healthy way. That's really hard sometimes, uh, especially with how divided we are as a country. You know, these days, if, if you. If you aren't with me, you're against me kind of mentality. So maybe it will help others have similar conversations or in some small way. Uh, see that at our core, we're, we are all just the same. April: Right?